< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Feb-14-05|| ||Akavall: Karpov surely was a great Champion he really dominated chess for 10 years. Some people, including myself dislike he practical style of play. I find it boring, because I don't understand many of his games. I am sure people who understand his thinking process don't find it boring.|
Even though, I don't like his style. I respect him because he was active WC, and he proved that he was the strongest, while he was a WC.
|Feb-14-05|| ||Akavall: I think even if Karpov and Fischer were both Russians or both Americans, the match still wouldn't take place (Fischer wouldn't play). |
|Feb-16-05|| ||Everett: <Abaduba>
IMO, Fischer would duck Karpov, try to claim he's champion by beating Spassky again 20 years later, and eventually spout hatefulness and not pay taxes from abroad.
Oh, wait, that's what happened.
|Feb-16-05|| ||noone2: I would say this - I don't believe Spassky played his best chess after the match in Reykjavik '72.|
Spassky did play Karpov in the candidates matches leading to the '74 WC - and the match was relatively close.
That suggests something to me re a Fischer - Karpov match...
|Feb-16-05|| ||Rama: If you think Garry could beat Bobby then you have to give Tolya a chance, too. That's because the K-K matches were decided by something like one or two games out of 100+ match encounters. Clearly K-K were nearly equals. Who else could beat Garry three games in a row? |
|Feb-16-05|| ||Everett: <noone2> Umm... no, it wasn't relatively close. Actually Karpov's victory was more convincing, percentage wise, than Fischer's.|
Karpov 4 wins 1 loss 5 draws This is not close at all. I am not arguing that this is the same as a 24 game (or 21 game match, as Fischer/Spassky was), but to use their individual records in match play against Spassky as some evidence of superiority/inferiority is pointless.
Finally, Spassky played his best chess, probably, in 69 and 70. According to the database, he lost one game all of '70, to Larsen in the same head to head as his famous game when he blew Larsen out of the water.
In '69 he lost two games only, both to Petrosian in their WC match
In '71 he lost two games, one to Korchnoi, one to Petrosian, but only 39 games (according to database here....)
Spassky is a great player, one of the greatest, and for a string, nearly unbeatable. Yet, he is still a step below Karpov, Fischer and Kasparov.
|Feb-17-05|| ||noone2: I think the score was +4 =6 -1 but my understanding is that Spassky's second during 1972 match - was moved to Karpov's camp (not sure if that was Zak or Furman).|
I am only going from recall - I seem to remember mention of this in R. Byrne's paperback on the WC cycle.
Moving his second to Karpov meant that all of Spassky's opening secrets, preferences etc. were revealed. That tells me that the match was even closer than the score suggests.
I would also argue that Spassky was not as strong in '74 as '72. I would agree that his peak was '69 - '70 but after '74 he was never really a contender.
I admire both Karpov and Spassky's games. Karpov was unbeatable for quite some time (I remember that before Miles won with 1...a6 - I don't think Karpov had lost a game in quite
IMO Fischer would have won in 1974 - not sure about subsequent WC cycles.
|Feb-17-05|| ||noone2: It was Geller that was Spassky's second ...
Karpov beat Lev Polugaevsky in the first Candidates match to face former World Champion Boris Spassky in the next round. Karpov was on record saying that he believed Spassky would easily beat him and win the Candidates cycle to face Fischer, and that he (Karpov) would win the following Candidates cycle in 1977.
However, instead of a bland one-sided rout everyone expected, the Spassky-Karpov match was spectacular. Tenacious and aggressive play from Karpov (who wasn't hurt by the fact that Spassky's chief opening analyst, 1955 Soviet Champion Efim Geller, defected to Karpov's side several months before the match) secured him a memorable win
|Feb-18-05|| ||Everett: <several months before> That's a bunch of time, and seconds don't play the games. Like I said, Karpov smashed Spassky then. There are many reasons I can site as to why Spassky played poorly against Fischer (combination of arrogance and the weight of expectation and hope of the whole Russian contingent on his shoulders)|
Karpov won in 74/75 because Fischer bailed, he was a no show. Karpov was there.
We will simply have to disagree on the matter. I believe that it could have gone either way, with betting money on Karpov, and you <noone2> think the other way, I'm simply content that Karpov has proven his greatness over the years.
|Mar-06-05|| ||Clubfoot: Everett: <My point is simply this. One cannot separate play from personality>|
Your point is dead-ass wrong in the determinist style. Moreover your major-league baseball examples (??) are symptoms of behaviour not personality.
|Mar-06-05|| ||Everett: <Clubfoot> LOL!
Hope this helps you.
|Mar-06-05|| ||Everett: <Clubfoot> Further, if you wish to believe that we can separate the player and their behaviors and personalities (see above link) from their play, have fun. These players aren't computers that bang pieces around the board while plugged into the wall.|
My baseball analogies above have nothing to do with determinist thinking. It's not an "if-than-else" argument. Rather, REALITY has a way of affecting real-life events, and cannot be ignored, for positive or negative, when trying to divine a possible outcome between Karpov and Fischer, or anything else for that matter.
All we have for certain is what history has left for us.
If I may so boldly quote myself...
<Life happens, and one cannot determine outcomes through conjecture, nor, certainly, can one say that Fischer peaked or not peaked when he was obviously unable, for whatever reason, to play for two decades after '72.>
Here's another wise thing a man once said, this would be you <Clubfoot>
<It's a great pity the two never did meet over the chessboard due to Fischer's derelict insanity: Kasparov used to give material for the initiative whereas Fischer grabbed material with defensive confidence. Would have been a supercool matchup. >
I would rather leave this argument with that excellent sentiment.
|Nov-04-07|| ||whiteshark: A few years later the improvement <17... Bg5+> |
click for larger view
was played here: A Bezemer vs P Peelen, 2001
|Jan-20-09|| ||M.D. Wilson: <ughaibu> <Karpov not having reached his peak in 1975 doesn't mean he hadn't already passed Fischer at his known peak.> Contentious, but plausible. I don't think Karpov reached his peak until after his first match with Kasparov. Those matches were certainly a catalyst in making Kasparov the player he became, but they helped Karpov,too. Just imagine if Karpov played Fischer. It would have certainly had the same affect on the young Karpov. Iron sharpens iron. Here, in this game, Karpov destroys his own weapon, along with Huebner.|
|Jan-20-09|| ||AnalyzeThis: Actually, Karpov never reached Fischer's peak of 2785, despite being helped by ratings inflation.|
|Jan-20-09|| ||Nina Myers: Interesting job you guys have.|
|Jun-17-09|| ||KASTILOWSKY: aja! FACT :1
karpov has the highest rating ever
2985 elo in linares 1994 the best performance by a player . and what a player .FACT:2 Karpov has more win tournaments than anybody alive more than 150
Fact :3 Karpov is the greatest endgame player ever lived........PERIOD
|Jun-17-09|| ||KASTILOWSKY: he can easily beat fischer|
|Aug-27-10|| ||sevenseaman: I was averse to Karpov games. This is a rare one I have enjoyed.|
|Oct-20-11|| ||indoknight: this game is better than Karpov's Immortal|
|Jun-22-12|| ||duplex: Fischer would have beaten Karpow easily in 1975 and again but not so easily in 1978 but not in 1981.
Karpow would have learned enough by that time and Fischer would have been another Fischer.|
|Jun-22-12|| ||King Death: This game was nice, it's just too bad to see the old argument of Karpov-Fischer 1975 resurrected. The discussion in 2005 was enough I think, maybe any future rants should be sent back to Karpov-Fischer World Championship Match (1975). It seems like the right spot.|
|Jun-22-12|| ||Petrosianic: The fact that history records Karpov as Fischer's successor absolutely haunts some people, and always will. They can't so much as see his name in print, much less any game he ever played against anyone, without trying to mentally reverse that result. If they could succeed, that would be the end of it, but of course it can never be changed.|
|Nov-14-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: GOTD: Doctored Robert
|Dec-16-12|| ||leka: it is not so clear that Fischer had beating Karpov.Karpov won all most all the tournaments from 1973 to 1984.Karpov a last hurrah in Linares scoring elo rating recod 3019,6 points.Fischer scored in 1970 blitz 2991 elo rating same as Carlsen in london 2012.Fischer got a draw against Huebner in 1970.Huebner has a win against Fischer in 1970 but Huebner missed it|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·