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|Oct-27-03|| ||Eggman: <I have a Tal's record around 2 wins, 1 loss with 14 draws against Karpov>|
Paul, as you may know, Databases are often not only incomplete but include frivolous games like blindfold, blitz, simultaneous, etc. I can verify that the first 11 serious games (from 1971 until February 1978) between Karpov and Tal were draws.
|Oct-30-03|| ||Open Defence: The funny thing is that most players tried quiet positional lines against Tal and failed, this is one instance of fighting fire with fire |
|Oct-30-03|| ||drukenknight: Okay a nice game yes, but is it so deep? This reminds me of the Kasparov/Jobava game we are discussing. Material is even but one guy has K way out in the center of the board. Look at Tal move the R three times on move 24-27, that cant be right. What if he tries to pressure whites K to put him in similar position. 24...g5? this kicks the N which is also creating mating problems. |
|Oct-30-03|| ||Phoenix: <Paul123>
I don't know much about this line, but I do know that 11.dxe6 is book (CM8000 played it against me a couple times).
|Oct-30-03|| ||drukenknight: is 12 exf7+ possible? hhmmm
Even 22...g5 maybe?
|Sep-11-07|| ||duplex: This is the real KARPOV..He was in his prime in 1980..As goog as Fischer in 1972 or Kasparov in 1990..|
|Sep-11-07|| ||sneaky pete: Jan Timman, in a recent publication (Matten 2, New In Chess 2007), repeats the old rumour that the outcome of this round 8 game (Karpov +1=6 was trailing Larsen and Timman) was pre-arranged. Tal, after the necessary alcoholic encouragement, supposedly later admitted this to Kavalek.|
|Sep-11-07|| ||RookFile: Tal did appear to show some suicidal tendencies where with his king.|
|Sep-11-07|| ||keypusher: <sneaky pete> Interesting, in _Studies and Games_ Timman wrote that, despite the complaints of certain journalists, this game was completely legit!|
|Aug-25-08|| ||skemup: It is amazing how Karpov pusched black King into quennside and attacked it.
31 Rb1! is some kind of punishment for 30..Re7?, becouse black loses Rook.|
|Dec-14-08|| ||patzer of patzers: <Open Defence> Fighting fire with fire? I thought Tal was an attacking player...?|
|Dec-14-08|| ||patzer of patzers: unless you mean Karpov played aggressively here?|
|Jan-10-09|| ||patzer of patzers: <Paul123> As of right now, Chessgames.com's database says Karpov beat Tal +2-1=19, so maybe you could supply CG with your extra Tal win over Karpov and get some games from here for your own database?|
|Jun-04-09|| ||Troller: <totololo> <Moreover, I remeber that I read a statement made by Fischer about that...I can't remeber the context... > You are probably thinking of Curacao, where Fischer accused some of the Soviets (Keres, Petrosian, Geller) of playing pre-arranged draws and saving their energy for other players. While some kind of agreement probably existed, I think it did not have a major impact. Still, I understand why it was considered unsportsmanlike behaviour, and it also led to the Candidates Tournament being played as a knockout tournament instead of a round robin.|
<The leading man was wining against his colleagues and he was wining the tournament> This was not the case in Curacao, although Fischer claimed that Korchnoi deliberately threw games against his fellow Soviets (a scenario that is very hard to picture).
Now, you claim that <late 60th to the mid 80th to every major tournament> the Soviet participants would deliberately lose against a compatriot. Do you have any evidence to back this up? It's quite a statement.
|Jun-04-09|| ||totololo: Jan Timman is a trustworthy person. Looking to the game is very uncharacteristic to Tal's style. That is suicide chess....|
His story reminds me another one. In the late 60th to the mid 80th to every major tournament the russians were presenting at list 3 players sometimes even 5 if it was very important with a lot of media representation. It is intersting to look to the results of the games between the members of this delegation - The leading man was wining against his colleagues and he was wining the tournament. Has someone that tournament tables of that time?
Moreover, I remeber that I read a statement made by Fischer about that...I can't remeber the context... Havana? Soussa?
It is a pitty to see Tal doing it. Karpov was never near Tal's level.
|Jun-04-09|| ||totololo: Private talk between my trainer and a leading K... - my trainer personal communication|
|Jun-04-09|| ||ughaibu: If you trust Timman, what about Keypusher's post?|
|Jun-04-09|| ||totololo: <Troller> For this reason I would like to find the tournamnet table with the final results for all major tournaments during that period. A simple calculation could clarify the issue and clear this thought out of my mind...|
|Jun-04-09|| ||keypusher: <totololo: Jan Timman is a trustworthy person. Looking to the game is very uncharacteristic to Tal's style. That is suicide chess....>|
Well, was he trustworthy in <New in Chess> when he said it was fixed? Or was he trustworthy in <Studies and Games> when he said it wasn't?
<Has someone that tournament tables of that time?>
This looks promising:
<It is a pitty to see Tal doing it. Karpov was never near Tal's level.>
|Jun-04-09|| ||Troller: <totololo> Tournament tables can be googled easily for. I take a random one, Petropolis IZ 1973, results between Soviet players were:|
Polugayevsky ½, Smyslov ½, Bronstein 1, Savon ½, Keres 1
Geller ½, Smyslov ½, Bronstein ½, Savon ½, Keres 1
Geller ½, Polu ½, Bronstein 0, Savon ½, Keres 1
Geller 0, Polu ½, Smyslov 1, Savon ½, Keres ½
Savon: Drew all other Soviets
Keres: Geller 0, Polu 0, Smyslov 0, Bronstein ½, Savon ½.
It may be argued that Keres threw games against the other Soviets, but more likely he was out of form. He finished way down the table and only scored wins against the bottom 3. If the Soviets really conspired, they could easily have won the tournament, now Mecking took it. A player like Savon lost 3 games in total, all against non-Soviet players.
|Jun-04-09|| ||shalgo: Something was clearly amiss with Tal in this tournament. He entered it as #2 in the world, but played without ambition from the start.|
Round 1: a 28-move draw with white against Timman.
Round 2: holds the draw in an inferior endgame against Kavalek.
Round 3: a 17-move draw with white against Gligoric.
Round 4: loses from an even position against Larsen (35...Nd3?).
Round 5: wins against Kurajica after the latter blunders on move 38.
Round 6: 20-move draw against Andersson.
Round 7: 19-move draw with white against Ljubojevic.
Round 8: this loss against Karpov.
Round 9: 27-move draw with white against Polugaevsky.
Round 10: 28-move draw against Hort.
Round 11: 22-move draw with white against Ivkov.
Did Tal ever take so many short draws in another tournament?
|Jun-04-09|| ||totololo: I checked the link
1. It is only a partial library as major tournaments are missing - where Fischer participated and there is literature here to support the crosscheck.
2. I look in 1953/54 in 3 international tournaments : Hastings,Zurich,Bucharest . Generally, more then 75% of the inter-russian games are short draws under 20 moves ....Doesn't seem to through games but relaxed play. - Ferocious with the other participants -
3. Bled '61 - Fischer second behind world Champion Tal . Fischer scores 3.5/4 against the russian delegation to make sure that he can reach the podium..... Tal was preparing his re-match with Botvinnik - excellent form but Fischer still won the game.
3. Havana65/66, Soussa missing
4. Still a lot of short draws in other int tournamnets ( in the western EU . It seems that the rules were very relaxed in the participation in Eastern Europe)
I read in these pages about a chinese sportif accepting proudly the pre-arangement for political reasons in a badmington match.... same should apply to "Russia with love" era.
I understand now Soljenitzn.... more I read more I start to believe that Keres was under high pressure to stay low in WC .... It will be interesting to see what Spassky and Kortchnoi living in France and Switzerland have to say ... if they would want to talk about old wounds.
I sincerly hope that this is over. Mr. Kasparov who is not anymore involved in the competition could tell more about present day practice...
Who will be the reporter to make such interesting interviews? Just a suggestion. Cleaning the plates....
In conclusion clear draws where done , full points difficult to say , not enough information - tournament tables...to continue digging
|Jun-11-09|| ||euripides: <Something was clearly amiss with Tal in this tournament.> Jon Speelman says that Tal suffered a bereavement between his 1979 interzonal triumph and his subsequent failure in the candidates' matches against Polugaevsky (in the series that led up to Karpov-Korchnoi 1981). I'm not sure of the exact dates.|
|Jun-11-09|| ||Granny O Doul: Yes, Tal lost his brother not long before his '80 match with Polu.|
|Nov-05-11|| ||HeMateMe: Odd statistic, in the database Tal v. Karpov is 19 draws and one win (classical chess), this being the only decisive game. Looks drawish without much material on the board, but Karpov eliminates the black pawn cover and commits regicide.|
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