< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-25-16|| ||Howard: First, I've never heard any claims about Fischer's 11-0 score being "suspicious" in any way. It may have been somewhat of a fluke, but Fischer probably did it far and square.|
Regarding Spassky-Karpov, let's just say that Spassky's sudden loss was rather convenient for Karpov.
Incidentally, how about Karpov's "win" over Polugaevsky at Tilburg, 1983 ? Now, if THAT one didn't seem suspicious, then I don't know what would.
|Oct-25-16|| ||Petrosianic: <Howard: First, I've never heard any claims about Fischer's 11-0 score being "suspicious" in any way. It may have been somewhat of a fluke, but Fischer probably did it far and square.>|
That could be because you hang mostly around Americans. I've lived in Germany and other areas, and have heard as much on the other side. (Think Lt. Surena, but with more marbles and less nastiness).
But the theory goes that it was very suspicious that Saidy should blow the draw on the very last move he cold plausibly do it (the sealed move, right before he'd have a whole night to analyze the game). The presumed motive is that people were upset that America's only world championship hope seemed semi-retired after Curacao, and what better way to snap him back in than with a shutout win? (The fact that Saidy and Fischer were friends doesn't hurt).
It is nutty, but not really any nuttier than dreaming a thrown Spassky game out of thin air. When you hear nuttiness on all sides, you get more adept at identifying it as such even when it's something you'd like to hear.
|Oct-26-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Hello
Spassky was living in this country since 1978
Which doesn't mean he already was a French national by then.
I have a "photographic" memory (maybe I'm wron though...the age...) of him playing for France at the 1984 Olympiad (and being the only French not to lose against the Soviets)
He drew Beliavsky....
|Oct-26-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Spassky would have never thrown away a game!
And against Karpov of all!
|Oct-27-16|| ||Howard: First...Spassky was representing France by the end of 1984, so it's quite believable that he represented that country in the Olympiad. As noted above, he switched "flags" in the middle of 1984. Still remember being at a tournament in Milwaukee that summer and hearing about it then.|
As for Fischer's 11-0 sweep, I'll concede that Petrosianic does raise a couple of interesting points. To be honest, I'd not thought of the fact that Fischer was pretty inactive during 1963---thus, that shutout just might have sparked something in him.
As for Spassky's "never (would) have thrown a game", well, maybe Spassky wanted to keep himself in good standing with the Soviets, but who knows ?! It's worth repeating that the
Spassky-Karpov game took place in the last round, and thus, the result made a big difference to Karpov.
In other words, if the game had occurred earlier in the tournament, then it would not have looked so strange.
'Nuff said !
|Oct-27-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Sorry but
I'm afraid that everything is over only after the 3rd out on the 9th inning
|Oct-27-16|| ||Howard: What if the score is tied ?|
|Oct-27-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Oops
Didn't expect that reply
Need to think
How much I've got left on the clock?
|Oct-27-16|| ||ZonszeinP: It'd be interesting to know how much time Spassky had left, before 35-Bxf4|
|Oct-28-16|| ||Retireborn: <ZonszeinP> Spassky was certainly in time trouble, although I don't know exactly how much time was left.|
I recall that Tal was also accused of losing games on purpose, to Karpov (Bugojno 1980) and to Kasparov (Brussels 1987) - the latter a last round game that enabled Garry to catch Ljubo. Frankly I think such accusations are usually malicious.
That Karpov (or any other GM) could sometimes wear down an older opponent in a drawn endgame by sheer attrition is not surprising. A notorious example:-
Korchnoi vs Karpov, 1987
|Oct-28-16|| ||perfidious: <Retireborn....I recall that Tal was also accused of losing games on purpose, to Karpov (Bugojno 1980) and to Kasparov (Brussels 1987) - the latter a last round game that enabled Garry to catch Ljubo....>|
Most interesting; I had never heard this regarding Tal in any fashion till now.
In that connexion, does the actual course of Karpov vs Tal, 1980, as the sole decisive result between these titans in twenty games of classical play, disprove such an accusation, or lend weight to it?
<....Frankly I think such accusations are usually malicious.>
In the pre-computer epoch, that was far more likely to be the case than nowadays.
|Oct-28-16|| ||Petrosianic: <perfidious>: <Most interesting; I had never heard this regarding Tal in any fashion till now.>|
You probably don't pay much attention to baseless rumors. You'd be amazed at some of the baseless ones I've heard. Howard seemed shocked the other day that I'd heard accusations of games thrown to Fischer. (Huh? I thought Fischer MADE baseless accusations, I didn't know he was on the receiving end too!) This site is heavily influenced by the American mindset, so most of the baseless accusations here share that bent, but the whole world isn't slanted that way.
|Oct-28-16|| ||Retireborn: <perfidious> I think it was not the course of the game(s), but rather the fact that Tal was on friendly terms with the Ks (always suspicious!) and that he had never previously lost to them.|
Jan Timman wrote about Bugojno 1980 in one of his books "Studies and Games" (a translation of 1983's Schaakwerk I) and I quote:-
"...Karpov had beaten Tal with astonishing ease. And immediately the journalists shouted 'fix' in the Yugoslav newspapers. I am absolutely convinced that this was not the case...after Tal overlooked one move it all went quickly and silently."
|Oct-28-16|| ||Petrosianic: <and that he had never previously lost to them.>|
That's a tricky metric to use in chess, considering how many games aren't real games. Of the previous Karpov-Tal games, eight of them had been drawn in under 30 moves. When you play a real game, the odds of a decisive result increase.
|Oct-28-16|| ||keypusher: <As for Spassky's "never (would) have thrown a game", well, maybe Spassky wanted to keep himself in good standing with the Soviets, but who knows ?! It's worth repeating that the Spassky-Karpov game took place in the last round, and thus, the result made a big difference to Karpov.>|
Even though he hadn't formally defected, Spassky had left the USSR for good in 1977. A year after this game Spassky broke decisively with the USSR because, he said, they were favoring Karpov. Nothing is impossible, but I would be stunned if he threw this game to someone he really didn't like.
<Howard> Pay no attention to what Petrosianic is saying about the '63-'64 championship. He's just teasing you. Saidy did his damnedness to draw that last-round game, and almost succeeded.
|Oct-28-16|| ||Retireborn: <Petrosianic> I think it's *because* most previous Karpov-Tal games were fightless draws that the Larsen/Timman supporters resented them not doing that this time. Although by Timman's account Larsen only had himself to blame for not winning the tournament.|
|Oct-28-16|| ||Petrosianic: <Pay no attention to what Petrosianic is saying about the '63-'64 championship. He's just teasing you.>|
I'm not kidding him, and I never said I believed it myself. I said I'd HEARD it. I lived in Europe years back, and the baseless rumors you hear there are very different from the baseless ones you hear here.
|Oct-30-16|| ||ZonszeinP: <Retireborn> thank you|
|Oct-30-16|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Let's get serious... what does that White Rook at a3? *cringes*|
|Oct-30-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Would you suggest Nc4 instead?|
|Oct-30-16|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <ZonszeinP>
That would involve the sequence 10. Nc3-e2-g3-f5-e3-18. Nc4, I suppose. For defending a weak doubled b-pawn... so I would have made 6 (...) kinda useless Knight moves in 9 moves.
Yeah right. While I have no clue what's wrong with 11. Nd5 instead of Ne2.
|Oct-30-16|| ||WorstPlayerEver: PS it seems Boris acts like captain Obvious throughout this game. Fiddling a bit around with his Queen's Knight lmao|
|Oct-30-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Ne2 si the move from someone who
Is playing for a win
|Nov-01-16|| ||Howard: Thanks for all the input, gentlemen ! My posting from October 25 has obviously provoked a lot of interesting responses.|
|Nov-01-16|| ||ZonszeinP: Nuff said|
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