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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
| Apr-09-06 |
| mvbrooks: turtlekaze, if the queen is left at d8, it seems black could play 27. Bc5, winning the d pawn and giving the rook an open file. also, replying to durnstein and helanubo, i also thought Ra1, but what if black declines the offer and plays e6? |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| Hesam7: After:
25... cxb4 26. b6 Qa8 27. b7 Qa6 28. Rxb4 Qxc6 29. b8=Q Rxb8 30. Rxb8+ Kf7 31. Rb4 Qxc2 32. Rc1 Qe2 
click for larger viewHow White can make any progress? Black can push the g and h pawns. This may show that playing 24. b4 and refusing the draw was wrong. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| durnstein: <mvbrooks> After Ra1, Black can't afford not to take the queen sacrifice, because declining with the rook on a1 allows White to get out with an even up trade of the queens: 24. Ra1 e6
25. Qa6 Ra8
26. Qxa8 Rxa8
27. Rxa8 Rxa8
28. c4
Now White hasn't sacrificed his queen, he still has the passed pawn on b5, and a winning position. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| durnstein: <Hesam7> I think better in that line is: 25 ..... cxb4
26. b6 Qa8
27. c7
and what is Black to do?
Giving up the c6 pawn with 27 b7 followed by the favorable exchange of a Black rook for the b8 pawn weakens White's attacking pressure too much. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| goldenbear: I really liked this puzzle. First thought was Ra1, then discovered that b4 was much better and decided to "play" it, although I couldn't see past Qb6. Reading the posts I'm almost convinced that Ra1 was better. But I have a question: why not play 24.Red1 with the idea of Rxc6 25.dxc6 Qb6 26.b4 (not allowing c4) or else 25.Qc7 26.Rd3!? Ra8 27.Ra3 Rxa3 28.bxa3 when White's rook, bishop, and 3! connected, passed pawns may overwhelm the Black queen. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| Hesam7: <durnstein> After:
25... cxb4 26. b6 Qa8 27. c7? Qxe4
Black defends b4 and White pans can not move anymore at the same time Black's central pawns will start rolling. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| durnstein: <Hesam7> Good point. But still: 25 ..... cxb4
26 b6 Qc8
27 Qa8 c7
28 Qxe4 f3
and Black's queen has to either give up the defense of b4 (permitting Rxb4) or permit a safe advance b6-b7 and the White pawns are still rolling. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| chessmoron: hey durnstein, you know that white lost a queen, right? |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| Fezzik: Whatever you do, don't allow computers to bully you into thinking the position after 24.b4 is even. Computers are much weaker than humans in this type of position. The mere fact that the computers consider a R+2 passed pawns to be equal to a Q here speaks volumes about the difficulty of Black's position. I considered 24.Ra1 for a moment, but 24.b4 is so much more to the point because it sets the Q-side pawns into motion much more efficiently. Again, bravo to El Khalif! |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| Hesam7: <durnstein> After:
25... cxb4 26. b6 Qa8 27. c7? Qxe4 28. f3 Qc4 29. Bd2 (29. b7?? Qxc7) Qc5 30. Be3 Qa5 White is lost. |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| durnstein: <chessmoron> Well, no, White exchanged a queen for a rook and two connected passed pawns. You know that White won the actual game, don't you? |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| durnstein: <Hesam7>
25.... . cxb4
26. b6 Qa8
27. c7 Qxe4
28. f3 Qc4
29. Re-c1 Qc5
30. c4!
and I think White still has a winning edge.
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Apr-09-06
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| Richard Taylor: After 25... cxb4 White plays 26. Rxb4 and then c4 |
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| Apr-09-06 |
| Hesam7: <durnstein> After:
25... cxb4 26. b6 Qa8 27. c7 Qxe4 28. f3 Qc4 29. Rec1 e4! [29... Qc5?? 30. Bxc5]
30. fxe4 Bd4!
White loses the b6 pawn and it is over.
<Richard Taylor> After: 25... cxb4 26. Rxb4 Qa8 27. Reb1 Bf6 28. b6 Qxc6 29. b7 Rb8 30. Ba7 Rxb7 31. Rxb7 Qxe4 I think Black's pawn mass in the center wins the game. |
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Apr-09-06
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| aazqua: This is a puzzle where the solution (meaning the first move) is obvious, but it isn't at all obvious whether the solution is playable. Stated as a puzzle, there really isn't any other alternative first move. |
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| Apr-10-06 |
| durnstein: <chessmoron> Yes, no more White queen moves of course. I misnumbered some Black moves as White moves. |
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| Apr-10-06 |
| durnstein: <Hesam7> Lot of variations; we would need to be sitting at a board together to work them all through. Per my earliest posts on this, I always liked the 24 Ra1 line anyway. Cheers. |
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Apr-10-06
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| kevin86: White's queen was in a vise-the best way to rescue her was to sacrifice her. The final position is amusing:the two lone pawns are worth MORE than black's queen. Black,a queen ahead,resigns |
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Apr-10-06
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| dakgootje: Got it partly, but of course far from being able to say that i got the puzzle. |
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| Apr-11-06 |
| goldenbear: I've looked at this for a long time but I don't have a program. Im pretty much convinced 24.Red1 is the best move, with the ideas given in my previous post. Will somebody take a look at those lines and give me some suggestions. |
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Apr-12-06
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| Richard Taylor: < Hesam7:
<Richard Taylor> After:25... cxb4 26. Rxb4 Qa8 27. Reb1 Bf6 28. b6 Qxc6 29. b7 Rb8 30. Ba7 Rxb7 31. Rxb7 Qxe4 I think Black's pawn mass in the center wins the game> But Back doesn't have to play like that -it is a postional sac -he plays 25... cxb4 26. Rxb4 Qa8 27. c4! and then starts manoeuvreing - I am sure White will win. He doesn't need to advance the pawns yet. |
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| Apr-12-06 |
| goldenbear: <Richard Taylor> I disagree. This is a sacrifice of material not position. Therefore, White must play extremely actively to retain the advantage. Looking at the position after Black's 23rd move, it is clear that if White were to occupy the Queen's rook file, his position will become overwhelming! And so he plays 24.Red1 with that idea. The thematic line runs, then: 24.Red1 Rxc6 25.dxc6 Qb6 (Qa8 Rd3) 26.c4! Ra8 27. Rd3! with the threat of Ra3!, when the exchange of rooks leads to a third connected passed pawn and a lost endgame for Black despite his Queen and impotent bishop. Therefore, Black must play 27.Ra4, compelling 28.b4! This position deserves a diagram but I don't know how to do that. In this position, I can't think of an adequate defense to the plan Rb1-b3-a3, when the position is clarified and Black hasn't the time to stop the pawns. With his bishop on g7, Black is down a whole piece. Again, unfortunately, I don't have the aid of a computer. I may be crazy on this one (as with any other suggestions I give), but at any rate I feel the line is instructive and welcome anything to show this to be all wrong. Anyway that is my argument as to why 24.b4?! deserves a '?!' instead of a '!'. |
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Apr-27-06
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| patzer2: White's 24. b4! is a true positional Queen sacrifice, which appears to offer strong winning chances with little or no risk. After Black's relatively weak followup 25...e6?, White won by playing 26. Red1  . However, White had an even stronger reply available with 26. bxc5!  . Play might have continued 26. bxc5! dxc5 27. Bxc5 Re8 28. Red1 Qa5 29. c4 Qa4 30. c7 Bf6 31. b6 (+8.12 @ 14 depth, Fritz 8). As noted by <Hesam7>, Black could have put up more resistance with 25...cxd4! However, after <Richard Taylor>'s suggestion of 25...cxd4! 26. Rxb4!, White has excellent winning chances and IMO it is Black who is on the edge of losing and fighting for the draw. Perhaps one of the super computers or a strong analyst with plenty of time can save Black's game, but OTB against strong human competition I like White's chances. |
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Apr-27-06
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| patzer2: <Hesam7> After <25... cxb4 26. Rxb4 Qa8 27. Reb1 Bf6>, instead of 28. b6?! try 28. c7 or 28. Rc4 and see if you still think Black is still winning. |
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Apr-27-06
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| patzer2: <goldenbear> I find your <24. Red1!? Rxc6 25. dxc6> idea interesting. However, instead of 25...Qb6 maybe Fritz 8's suggestion 25...Qa5  offers Black better chances of holding in this line. |
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Later Kibitzing > |
sac: 24.b4