< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
|Mar-27-08|| ||Rainier Wolfcastle: Like <beginner64> "I looked hard at Rxg2 since it is such an inviting move, but never found the Qe2 continuation." Also looked at ...f3 and ...Qh3, but nothing really worked, because white could defend just anything.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||Eyal: I suppose that one of the main difficulties in discovering 24…Rd2!! is that one has to switch focus, from thinking "vertically" about the g-file to thinking "horizontally" about the second rank; since the winning combination begins with Rxg2+, the natural tendency is to keep searching for the decisive blow along lines related to the g-file.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||Eyal: <moppa: I'll give myself some credit because I didn't see ..Rd2 so I rejected Rxg2 and went for straight 22...Qe2. :)|
Someone tell me, is it good enough to keep at least a modest advantage?
23.g3 fxg3 24.Qc2 gxh2+ Kh1 looks like better for black altough White is still struggling.>
22...Qe2 23.g3 fxg3 24.Qc2 gxh2+ 25.Kh1 <Rd2!!> wins in a similar way to the game, with the added motif of 26.Qxd2 Qxe4+
And yeah, 22...Qe2(?) should give black an advantage - after 23.Rxd8+ Rxd8 24.Qc4 (<zooter>'s 24.Qc2 loses immediately to 24...Rd2) 24...Rd2 25.Qxe2 (25.Qxe6+ Kb7 26.Qh3 Rd3 followed by Rxc3) 25...Rxe2 and Black wins a pawn and might be able to win the endgame.
|Mar-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: Thursday (Medium): Black to play and win.
Material: even. The Black Re8 and Rg8 have open files, with Re8 facing Re1 and Rg8 facing Kg1. The Qh5 is active against the White K-side, and it attacks Rd8. The Nb8 helps defend Kc8, so all Black pieces are active. The Pf4 forms a wedge into the Black K-side. White has 23.Rxd8+, dissipating tensions on his K-side, so Black must give check if there is a decisive stroke.
Candidates (22...): Rxg2+
The sacrifice cannot be refused:
The sacrifice also cannot be accepted:
23.Kxg2 Qe2+ (threatening 24…Rg8 and mate soon)
White has three feasible responses.
(1) 24.Rf2 Rg8+ 25.K moves Qxf2 (threatening 26…Qg2+) 26.Qc2 [or Rg1] Qf3+ and mate soon
(2) 24.Kh3 Rg8 (threatening 25…Qg4# or 25…Qh5#, with no adequate defense)
(3) 24.Kh1 Qxe4+ 25.Kg1 [Rf3 Qxf3+ and 26…Rg8#] Rg8+ 26.Kf2 Rg2#
I almost missed the last line, where Rd8 is harder to bring in, but I learned from yesterday. I like the game mate better than the one I found.
|Mar-27-08|| ||zooter: <(3) 24.Kh1 Qxe4+ 25.Kg1 [Rf3 Qxf3+ and 26…Rg8#] Rg8+ 26.Kf2 Rg2#>|
24...Qxe4?? loses to 25.Qxe4 -- second person to fall into this...!
|Mar-27-08|| ||MaxxLange: 22...Rxg2+ was the first thing I looked at, but I could not see the correct continuation.|
Another idea I tried fails in an interesting way:
22..Rg3??, with the idea 23. hxg3 fxg3 24. Re1 Qh2+ 25. Kf1 Qh1+ 26. Ke2 Qxg2+. That may or may not lead to anything good for Black (I suspect, to nothing better than a perpetual check, if that). BUT instead, White can play:
22...Rg3 23. Rxd8+ Kxd8 24. Qd1+ Qxd1 25. Rxd1+ and 26. hxg3, which utterly refutes the idea.
|Mar-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<zooter> wrote: <(3) 24.Kh1 Qxe4+ 25.Kg1 [Rf3 Qxf3+ and 26…Rg8#] Rg8+ 26.Kf2 Rg2#>
<24...Qxe4?? loses to 25.Qxe4 -- second person to fall into this...!>|
Thanks, <zooter>. I read the previous posts, but missed it. It seems that 24...Rd2 is absolutely necessary to make the combination work. This game is a superb example of how one needs to work a combination through to its conclusion in all variations. I almost omitted the three variations, with a "and mates soon" postscript...and I would have looked as brilliant the one-move wonders who posted 22...Rxg2+.
|Mar-27-08|| ||hakoba: By Chessbase Big Database 2007 and Hungarian Chess History vol. I the game won Kolisch, as we can see here.
Funny, but in Big DB if I see well the result was 7-1 for Kolisch...|
|Mar-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<Eyal> wrote: According to <sneaky pete>'s post he's the third, since that's what Kolisch actually played in the real game...>|
Once three people fall into the same error, I have to wonder what psychological flaw underlies the error. My guess: Qa4 is so removed from the K-side action that its defense of Pe4 is easy to overlook, once one is focused on the K-side calculations. Again, it seems to be important to see everything repeatedly before seeking the successive candidates. The preamble in my analysis is an attempt to be perspicacious in looking for the key puzzle move (and it has really helped me), but obviously I need to continue to do that in successive moves, too. This puzzle nicely exposed that weakness in my processes.
|Mar-27-08|| ||Alphastar: Well, I missed 24. ..Rd2 as so many others did.
So I eventually returned to the line I first chose which was 1. ..Qe2 2. Rxd8+ Rxd8 3. Qc4 Rd2 4. Qxe2 Rxe2 and black picks up the pawn on e4.
It's not a very convincing win though.
|Mar-27-08|| ||Fezzik: This was indeed a challenging position. The main reason this was so difficult was that Black couldn't afford half-measures such as f3 or Rxd1??|
However, this very fact meant there was only one serious candidate move, as played in the game and the most forcing move on the board. After that, the moves come quite naturally.
This was a good 3.5 star puzzle. Thanks Chessgames.com for another excellent tactical exercise!
|Mar-27-08|| ||GibGezr: Looked at Rxg2+ first, and even found the idea of Qe2...but then decided that Qe2 was the best first move. Missed the idea of Rd2 totally.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||MaxxLange: <Once three people fall into the same error, I have to wonder what psychological flaw underlies the error> |
The Russians say "a patzer forgets the ranks", right? This is a notorious blind spot that many players have. I know I have lost horribly due to this before.
I have heard the theory that, since so much of our attention in chess is centered on advancing forward, it is easy to overlook both lateral and retreating moves.
|Mar-27-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <dzechiel: Oh my goodness. I overlooked 24 Qxe4 in my second line. I'm so embarrassed. :(>|
Hi dzechiel.... you have let us all down.... :-)
And <Johnlspouge>, you too fell for this? shame on you :-)
I didn't have time to post today, but had a go at analyzing the puzzle, and my 'solution' was exactly the same as both of yours, including the blunder 24...Qxe4??
If <Zooter's> claim is correct, our consolation is that unlike Von Kolisch, we didn't suffer the pain of botching a pretty win in this fashion, in a real game.....
Damn that would be painful
|Mar-27-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Wow.... I've never seen such widespread failure on a chessgames puzzle, especially not for a Thursday puzzle....|
The finale makes this a very cute combination.
|Mar-27-08|| ||keypusher: <Udayan Owen If <Zooter's> claim is correct, our consolation is that unlike Von Kolisch, we didn't suffer the pain of botching a pretty win in this fashion, in a real game.....>|
I knew this combination from Tartakower & Du Mont (I don't think I ever would have gotten it on my own). T&dM has the "happy" version, which apparently was never played.
|Mar-27-08|| ||DarthStapler: Didn't see Rd2|
|Mar-27-08|| ||xrt999: <Tactic101: I'll give myself part credit. Yes, I saw Rxg2 and Qe2+ and the continuations for most of the lines, but I didn't exactly see Rd2! if white plays Kh1. If Rg8??, Qc2! and white wins. Ouch. Gotta make sure that opponent has no defenses at his disposal.>|
I think what you mean is black has overlooked the following line:
22...Rxg2 23.Kxg2 Qe2+ 24.Kh1 Rg8 25.Qc2!
|Mar-27-08|| ||MaxxLange: <I suppose that one of the main difficulties in discovering 24…Rd2!! is that one has to switch focus, from thinking "vertically" about the g-file to thinking "horizontally" about the second rank; since the winning combination begins with Rxg2+, the natural tendency is to keep searching for the decisive blow along lines related to the g-file.>|
This makes a lot of sense to me. I think the whole topic of "blind spots" is really interesting, and of practical value.
|Mar-27-08|| ||UdayanOwen: I'd just like to add a thought to the discussion about why everyone's missing 24...Rd2.|
I don't know that it is just the transition from vertical to horizontal. After all, we worked out 23...Qe2 attacking on the rank. And I'll bet that if the white d-rook was instead on a1, just about all of us would find Rd2 forcing mate without having to blink.
So I think that the main problem is that it is very rare that when two rooks challenge each other on a file, that one can just walk into the seventh rank with impunity. I think this might be why our intuition failed to bring the idea 24...Rd2 to our awareness.
|Mar-27-08|| ||sombreronegro: 22.Q-e2.
Why? Qg4 does not cut off the white queen from the defense like Q-e2. I was tempted by the rook sac but I think I see escape routes. The f1 rook must defend d1 so all possible defenders of g2 are unavailable. That leaves 22 ... g3. 24 f4xg3 and I see no defense
|Mar-27-08|| ||sombreronegro: Looks like I did not have the same line as the game. Much nicer. I will have to see it 22 Q-e2 is playable later.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||Creg: Options:
I looked at both for a little while, when it finally dawned on me to combine the two moves, well sort of...
1...Rxg2+ 2. Kxg2 Qe2+ 3.Kh1 Rd2! and I believe black is going to mate next move.
If white varies at move 3...say
3.Rf2 then 3...Rg8+ followed by 4...Qxf2
That leaves 3. Kh3 but after 3...Rg8 black threatens mate with 4...Qh5.
I think this may be the line. Lets find out.
|Mar-27-08|| ||kevin86: First,I looked for some way to divert the queen and possibly pick off a rook. Then I looked at 22...♕h3-but saw no future in that. Finally,I found the solution: 22...♖xg2+ cannot be refused and when accepted,exposes white to an attack by queen and rook.|
The final move is the real coup-white has no defense to the mate threats and cannot play 25 ♖xd2 under penalty of 25...♕xf1#.
|Mar-27-08|| ||piever: <And yeah, 22...Qe2(?) should give black an advantage - after 23.Rxd8+ Rxd8 24.Qc4 (<zooter>'s 24.Qc2 loses immediately to 24...Rd2) 24...Rd2 25.Qxe2 (25.Qxe6+ Kb7 26.Qh3 Rd3 followed by Rxc3) 25...Rxe2 and Black wins a pawn and might be able to win the endgame.> I couldn't find the right continuation after 22...Rxg2, so I focused on 22..Qe2. My main line was 22...Qe2 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Qc4 (otherwise black plays Rd2) Qe3+ 25. Kh1 (if Rf2 then Rd1+, winning) Rd6 and now black is clearly better.
I would be very grateful if a better chessplayer than me or someone with a chess software (or even a good player with a software:)) analysed the position after 22 ... Qe2 to see if:|
1) my line is correct
2) black is really winning
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