< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jan-16-08|| ||whitebeach: <tanksnaps: Looking through the game, I wondered why Black didn't play 25. ... Ne2+. |
This move pins the white knight and forces one of two responses [26. Kh1 or 26. Kf2].>
It seems to me that white has a third reply after 25 . . . Ne2+: simply 26. Nxe2.
What now? If 26 . . . Qxd2 27. Nxf7 looks extremely strong. If 26 . . . Rc2 27. Rxf6 and black can resign.
|Jan-16-08|| ||tanksnaps: whitebeach...I apologize, I read the numbering wrong. I meant to write |
26. ... Ne2+.
All of the other points I believe are still valid.
|Jan-16-08|| ||gawain: Beautiful finish. (For the record, I did not succeed in solving the puzzle.)|
|Jan-16-08|| ||zenpharaohs: Udayanowen: "<zenpharaohs> Johnlspouge didn't spell it out, but from the context I'm sure he was referring to the idea of forcing mate in the line 28.Ne6 exf6 29.Rxg6 Nxg6, with 30.Qxg6 (the point being to justify 30.Qxg6 as superior to the prosaic 30.Qxd2). In this variation calculating through to checkmate in all lines is very achievable for a human.|
Your Rybka analysis of mate on move 48 would presumably be based on the variation 28.Ne6 Nxe6 29.Qxd2. Whilst we all understand this to be winning on material, I don't think anybody is suggesting in practice a human could calculate their way to mate from that position...."
Oh I see. I rejected 28 ... fxe6 right away; it's clearly wrong. I was basing the analysis on the correct line for both sides which is indeed 28.Ne6 Nxe6 29.Qxd2 .... It turns out that Rybka has shaved a couple moves off the mate since the last post, it occurs at move 46.
I agree that people do not normally calculate a mate in eighteen but that sort of thing has occurred from time to time in analysis. But here is the usual case; in addition to the material advantage white has no thorny complications in the endgame so there is no real need to calculate when the end must come.
|Jan-16-08|| ||zenpharaohs: bleedingpack: "This puzzle is featured in the 'Advanced Combinations' section of Yasser Seirawan's "Winning Chess Tactics". His solution states:|
....Black can't capture the impudent White Knight because 1...Nxe6 2.Qxd2 drops the Black Queen, and 1...fxe6 2.Rxg6+ Kf7 3.Rg7+ also leads to Black's demise) 2.Qf8+ Kh7 3.Ng5 Checkmate."
Actually black has to capture the impudent white knight with his knight and drop the queen anyway - because everything else is checkmate a lot sooner.
If it's a choice between dropping the queen and forced mate, you're supposed to drop the queen.
|Jan-16-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <tanksnaps: I wondered why Black didn't play 26. ... Ne2+.|
27. Kh1 Rd8!! Threatening mate unless
Black has now won both rooks.>
I have changed the move numbering in your line above to make it accurate. I'm pretty sure 27...Rd8 just doesn't work. I am guessing the mate threat you have in mind is putting the queen on 28...Qd1 (or 28...Qf2), threatening 29...Qxf1#. But surely white can just keep his extra exchange, defend the back rank, AND make threats of his own with 28.Rf3....
I suspect that black didn't play 26...Nxe2 because he simply missed the coming 28.Ne6, and thought his plan in the game was winning. After 26...Rc8 27.Kh1 Rxc3, if not for the move 28.Ne6, I'm pretty sure black is winning with the principal threat of 28...Rg3 (removing defender for 29...Qxg2#) and secondary threat of 28...Rc1, eg:
28.Qh4 or Rg4, 28...Rc1 29.Rg1 Rxg1+ 30.Kxg1 Qe1#
28.Rg1 Rc1 (threatening 29...Rxg1+ and 30.Qe2#) 29.h3 Rxg1+ 30.Kxg1 Ne2+ 31.Kh2 Nxg3, when if 32.Kxg3 Qf4#. However, if at move 29.h4 Rxg1+ 30.Kxg1 Ne2+ 31.Kh2 Nxg3, this time 32.Kxg3 is met by 32...Qe3+ 33.Kh2 (33.Nf3 Qxh6 ) 33...Ng4+ and mate next move.
Since black's strategy however comes unstuck with the great move 28.Ne6! (now that's an active defense if I've ever seen one), I think maybe white was obliged to recover the exchange with 26...Ne2 27.Kh1 Nxg3+ 28.hxg3 Qd6.
I find the resulting position a little hard to assess... Black's pieces are very tied up but there is no easy way for white to increase the pressure. Meanwhile black is centralised and can activate his rook against the weak queenside pawns. If white can get the rook to the h-file, he can win, but this looks very hard to do, especially with the e5 pawn preventing the maneuvre Rf1-f4-h4. It seems a bit unclear to me but I'd say black won't lose easily and may be a bit better.
|Jan-16-08|| ||Aurora: A tough nut, but 28.Ne6 wins.|
|Jan-16-08|| ||wals: Now I must process the information gleaned from these concrete lines
into verbal termsthat can help me interpret the vital signs of the position.......
As I see it both Kings are threatened with white more under ssiege than black.
Removinng the Nf6 would guarantee a white checkmate
This doesnt seem possible at this moment.
If Rg3 is taken by Rc3 its curtains for white
If Rc3 moves to c1 ditto.
So 28.Ng5 to f3 seems to be the logical move
Open up now to reveal all...
O well OK I must try again one day ,
Analysis by Fritz 11: 5.5 minutes
1. (8.09): 28.Ng5-e6 Nf4xe6 29.Qh6xd2 Nf6-e4 30.Qd2xc3 Ne4xc3 31.Rg3xc3 Kg8-g7 32.Rf1-e1 f7-f6 33.Rc3-c6 Ne6-f4 34.Re1-d1 g6-g5 35.g2-g3 Nf4-h5 36.Rc6xa6 Kg7-g6 37.Kh1-g2 Kg6-f5 38.h2-h3
2. (-2.62): 28.Ng5-f3 Qd2-b2 29.h2-h3 Nf6-e4 30.Qh6-h4 Ne4xg3+ 31.Qh4xg3 Qb2xa2 32.h3-h4 f7-f6 33.Rf1-d1 Rc3-c7 34.h4-h5 Qa2xg2+ 35.Qg3xg2 Nf4xg2 36.h5xg6 Ng2-f4 37.Rd1-d6 Rc7-c3
|Jan-16-08|| ||RookFile: <wals: Now I must process the information gleaned from these concrete lines into verbal terms that can help me interpret the vital signs of the position....... >|
Just have a drink, and you'll do better.
|Jan-16-08|| ||TheaN: From what I read I think that you guys agree with my analysis for 28....fxe6 which is an ultimately mate in 10?! (28.5 - 38#).|
Woah. I'm actually shocked at that. I calculated a mate in 10 O.o?
|Jan-16-08|| ||TheaN: <UdayanOwen: In the line 28.Ne6 fxe6 29.Rxg6+ Nxg6 30.Qxg6+ Kf8 31.Qxf6+ Ke8 32.Qxe6+ Kd8 33.Rf8+ Kc7 34.Rf7+, you fail to consider the possibility 34...Qd7......|
Um, no, this is not necessary :0)>
That's what I thought. Getting the Queen removed only makes the line easier. Well, maybe it turns into a mate in 10... no, it doesn't, it's actually alike with 35.Rxd7 Kb8 36.Qb6+ Ka8/c8 37.Qb7#, where the normal variation follows 36....Kd8 without the Queen capture, thus both mate in 9.
But, indeed, for the complete analysis I should've added it XD.
|Jan-16-08|| ||TheaN: Oh, and Udayan, I think that I think is not true: <The only thing you could arguably be queried about (as if it matters) is the two exclamation marks given to white on move 30 and 31.>|
The moves 30.Qxg6+ and 31.Qxf6+ are opposed to 30.Qxd2 and 31.Rxf6+ which seem more logical at first sight. And I can't find any other move 30 or 31 with exclamation marks, so it have to be these two. I think that they are justified.
|Jan-16-08|| ||johnlspouge: I was curious as to where Black made his mistakes, and 17...h6 struck me as particularly impatient.|
Toga II 1.3.1 prefers
[ply 15/47, time 03:23, value -0.48]
17...Qb8 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Nfe4 Bh4 20.Qh6 Bd8 21.Nc5 Bc8 22.Rad1 Nd7 23.N5e4 Kh8 24.Bc4 Qxb2 25.Na4 Qc2
[ply 15/50, time 04:25, value -1.03]
17...h6 18.Bxh6 Bxh6 19.Qxh6 Nbd5 20.Nxd5 Bxd5 21.Rad1 Qb6 22.Rd3 Be6 23.Qe3 Rab8 24.Qxe5 Qxb2 25.Rd4 Rb4 26.Rfd1 Nd7 27.Qe3 Rxd4 28.Rxd4 Qa1+ 29.Rd1 Qxa2
|Jan-16-08|| ||johnlspouge: <UdayanOwen>: "...The strategy in this game is far less common, and is a very concerted application of the basic hypermodern idea of destroying the centre. Achieving this aim via c6, b5, bxc4, d5, and only then e5, is a really refreshing approach that I have not been exposed to."|
The game might not be the best recommendation for this hypermodern system, but the system is interesting. I play regularly against the Jester program (which is starting to look a lot weaker after all the tactical practice I am getting from the chessgames.com daily puzzle). Regularly, we achieve the following position
click for larger view
at which point Jester as White often plays 8.dxe5, which leads to a strategically uninteresting (to me) position with some advantage for White (about +0.48 according to Toga). The hypermodern approach is interesting, because against an opponent seeking a draw, it removes all possibility of early exchange in this set-up.
|Jan-16-08|| ||GannonKnight: Elegant solution. Missed it.|
|Jan-16-08|| ||whitebeach: <tanksnaps>
No biggie. Judging by some of the messed-up scores I've kept, recording the moves in accurate order can be as hard as playing the game itself.
But I agree with <UdayanOwen> that your 27 . . . Rd8 doesn't look very promising, whereas by recapturing the exchange with 27 . . . Nxg6+ black retains good chances and may even be better.
|Jan-16-08|| ||Halfpricemidge: Why'd white have to move 27.Kh1 ?|
|Jan-16-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <TheaN: But, indeed, for the complete analysis I should've added it XD (the queen giving Qd7 move)>|
You were absolutely not obliged to complete your analysis with this move... pulling you up on this was some tongue in cheek humour on my part. White automatically ends up a queen ahead with no analysis, which alone is enough to 'complete' the justification of 30.Qxg6+. And in any case it only takes a modicum of chess intuition and a few nanoseconds of analysis to know that black is still getting mated quickly.
The humour is based on the fact that I am ostensibly pulling you up for being 'incomplete' (and wrongly so, with such a dumb and irrelevant move), when in fact the 'completeness' of your analysis is of the highest order.
<TheaN: Oh, and Udayan, I think that I think is not true: <(UdayanOwen: The only thing you could arguably be queried about (as if it matters) is the two exclamation marks given to white on move 30 and 31.>
As I said, I think this is arguable and I think you have made the natural case for the inclusion of the exclams.
My perspective is that exclams need to be judged according to a GM level of skill, and at that level the calculations to justify 30.Qxg6 as mating are a piece of cake.
To me an exclam should be made only on the basis of exceptionally deep and/or complicated calculation, clever strategical conceptions, or tactical ideas that are genuinely creative, unexpected or paradoxical.
Strategically the idea that 30.Qxg6 could be a mating attack is not profound, whilst tactically the way to force mate is based on simple and natural forcing moves. Sure it is 10 moves deep and there is a bit of branching happening, but at a high level this is just routine.
All this is of course just my perspective.
|Jan-16-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <Halfpricemidge: Why'd white have to move 27.Kh1 ?>|
Because if 27.Ne6?? Ne2+ and 28...Qxh6 .
|Jan-16-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <TheaN> Just to clarify, despite my previous arguments about the calculations being 'routine', I don't intend to diminish your effort... If this was done purely through visualisation, it is pretty high level calculation.|
|Jan-17-08|| ||TheaN: <UdayanOwen: <TheaN: But, indeed, for the complete analysis I should've added it XD (the queen giving Qd7 move)>|
You were absolutely not obliged to complete your analysis with this move... pulling you up on this was some tongue in cheek humour on my part.>
Have you forgotten my 'XD' smily? When I using it I'm not that serious :), completely knowing Qd7 as defense had to be a joke.
<Just to clarify, despite my previous arguments about the calculations being 'routine', I don't intend to diminish your effort... If this was done purely through visualisation, it is pretty high level calculation.>
Well, I know that it might not be that hard to think it goes checkmate on both the queen and kingside, but doing it is another. That should be calculated from move 28, not later. And yes, I did this completely through visualisation, as I play semi-official myself (on ~1700 level, though), where you can't move the pieces during a game. I'd have to stick to your last 6 words then, thanks :).
|Jan-17-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <TheaN> sorry didn't recognise your XD as a smily.... Didn't know what it was actually...|
If you know that 30...Qxd2 is winning, then you don't need to calculate the mate in the 30...Qxg6+ line before playing 28...Ne6. You can play move 28 and 29, and if he goes into the line 28...Ne6 29.fxe6 Rxg6+ 30.Nxg6, only then do you need to calculate 30...Qxg6+ before deciding on the move (or if you can't be shagged then just play 30...Qxd2 and win easily, but of course 30...Qxg6+ is superior).
|Jan-17-08|| ||TheaN: Ah, well, maybe calculate it from move 30 in this case. Saterday or sunday, however, the solution would've been one with the black Queen not en prise after 29....Nxg6. Then move 28 is the thinking point, thus harder. Of course, without the Queen on d2, Ne6 is a blunder, but I'd just want to compare.|
XD is the smily with the X-eyes (amazed or joking) and a big smile. I overabuse that, sadly enough. XD. Couldn't resist.
|Jan-17-08|| ||patzer2: White solves the Wednesday Jan 16, 2008 puzzle by initiating a surprise mating attack with 28. Ne6!! See <bleedingpack>'s post for the blow-by-blow (i.e. move-by-move detailed description).|
|Jan-17-08|| ||patzer2: Note the key role the Queen's pin of the Knight on e4 plays in setting up and making the winning 28. Ne4!! possible.|
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