|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Oct-25-14 | | The17thPawn: Got whites first five moves but could not find the finishing rook lift starting with Rb1. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | greenfield67: OK - you want the bishop to get to e5, so you may as well do something forcing with the knight to vacate the square; and that idea takes you pretty much up to 25 Qg5. Here White can restore approximate material equality with the Black king exposed - and that would be enough to justify 22 Nf7. Even better is to aim for a rook lift. Because it's a puzzle, I knew there would be a way to achieve this; but even with that context I still didn't see 27 Rb1, which to my mind is the move which gives this puzzle its Saturdayness. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | plumbst: Very Difficult. White is down a pawn.
White's first move is rather obvious.
22.Nxf7!
Destroying Black's kingside.
22...Bg4 and Queen moves are answered by 23.Be5(+)
22...Rxg3 23.Qxh6+ Kxf7 24.Qh7+ Kf6 25.fxg3 gives White a winning attack. So,
22...Rxf7
23.Be5 Rf6
(23...Kh7 24.Qxf7#; 23...Qf6 24.Bxf6+ Rxf6 25.hxg5; 23...Kg8 24.Qg6+ Kf8 25.Qxh6 Ke8 26.Bf6 Qe7 27.Qh8+) 24.hxg5 hxg5
25.Qxg5+ Kf7
26.Qh5+ Kg8
(26...Rg6 27.Qh7+; 26...Kf8 27.Qf8+)
27.Bxf6 Qxf6
28.Re5.
Black looks busted here, e.g. 28...Be6 29.Rg5+ Kf8 30.Rg6 Qf5 31.Qh6+ Ke7 32.Re1 Rc6 33.Rg7+ Kd6 34.Qh2+ |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | M.Hassan: "Very Difficult"
White to play 22.?
Material equal
22.Rb1
A)
22..........Nc4
23.Rxb7 Be8
24.Qg6+ Kh8
25.Qxh6+ Kg8
26.Qg6+ Kh8
27.Nxf7+ Bxf7
28.Be5+ Qf6
29.Bxf6#
Also: 27...Rxf7 28.Be5+ Qf6 29.Bxf6+ Rxf6 30.Qh7#
B)
22..........Qc7
23.Nxf7 Rxg3
24.fxg3 Qxg3
25.Rf1 Bh3 threatening mate
26.Qxh6+ Kg8
27.Qh8#
Time to check |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | plumbst: After Black's 26...Kg8?! White has several winning moves but Reti found a nice finishing maneuver starting with 27.Rb1! 26...Kg7 was a slightly tougher defense, in which White should play the line I mentioned above, 27.Bxf6 Qxf6 28.Re5 which wins if prosaically. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | diagonalley: <plumbst> "White's first move is rather obvious" ... wow... i wish!! |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | Once: <diagonalley: <plumbst> "White's first move is rather obvious" ... wow... i wish!!> May all your wishes be granted! Here's the starting position: 
click for larger viewQuestion - without moving any of the pieces or thinking up moves, what does this position say to you? 1. The black king is exposed. It looks as if he has swapped his kingly robes for a pawn's tabard. Instead of quaffing fine wines in the palace of g8, he has rolled his sleeves up and his standing in a pawn's place defending h6. 2. White is in shape for a kingside attack. The queen on h5 is wearing those anatomically correct but defensively suspect chain-mail cups on her bosoms. The h4 pawn is getting into the act. We have better rooks than black and an outposted knight. Only our Bb3 isn't doing as much is it could. That leads us to the conclusion that we are looking at a kingside mating attack. Already that should be suggesting Nxf7. Knights sacrifice themselves on f7 more often than they have baths. Then we need to ask our pieces what they want out of life. The Bb3 wants to go to e5 to check the black king, but he doesn't want this to be met by f6. The Qh5 wants someone to kick the black king away from the defence of h6. The white rooks want to trundle up the board on open files. That's when you spot that the Ne5 is actually in the way. It has a wonderful outpost, but nothing much to attack from it. If we could swap the knight for the bishop we would have the makings of A Game of Thrones bloodbath which may or may not end up with the demise of Sean Bean. Again. So we look for ways to throw the knight with tempo. 22. Nxf7 does several things. It attacks the queen (so can't be ignored). It clears the e5 square for the bishop. It eliminates the f pawn which might otherwise put up the barricades with f6. It takes a lot longer to write all that than it does to think it. Then the question becomes "does Nxf7 work?" and not "what should I play?". Incidentally, 27. Rb1 is not the only way to win. By the time we get to that point ... 
click for larger view... white has won three pawns for his sacrificed knight, has exposed the black king and can win the exchange immediately. The puzzle is effectively over. At this point, Fritz is showing five moves over +3 and eight moves over +1. Pick of the pops is 27. Qh4 (+4.8) and 27. Bxf6 (+4.17) with 27. Rb1 at +4.15 |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | agb2002: White is one pawn down.
The white pieces look ready for the assault of the black castle. The weakness of the dark squares invites to play 22.Nxf7, clearing e5 for the bishop: A) 22... Rxf7 23.Be5+
A.1) 23... Kf8 24.Qxh6+ Ke8 (24... Ke7 25.Qd6+ Ke8 26.Bf6+ and mate in four; 24... Kg8 25.Qh8#; 24... Rg7 25.Qxg7+ Ke8 26.Bf6+ and mate in three) 25.Bf6+ Be6 (25... Re7 26.Qh8+ Kf7 27.Qg7+ Ke8 28.Qg8#) 26.Rxe6+ is a massacre. A.2) 23... Kg8 24.Qxh6 and Black must lose material to avoid mate. For example, 24... Rh7 25.Qg6+ Kf8 26.Bd6+ Re7 27.Rxe7 Qxe7 28.Qf6+, etc. A.3) 23... Rf6 24.hxg5 hxg5 25.Qxg5+ Kf7 26.Qh5+
A.3.a) 26... Ke6(7) 27.Bxf6+ Kxf6 28.Qh4+ and 29.Qxd8 wins. A.3.b) 26... Kf8 27.Qh8+ Ke7 28.Bxf6+ Kxf6 29.Qxd8+, etc. A.3.c) 26... Kg7 27.Bxf6+ Qxf6 (27... Kxf6 28.Qh6+ Kf7 (28... Kf5 29.Re5+ and mate soon) 29.Qh7+ and the next check wins the queen) 28.Re5 A.3.c.i) 28... Rc2 29.Rg5+ Kf8 30.Qh4 and the threat 31.Rg8+ Ke7 (31... Kf7 32.Rf8+) 32.Qh7+ winning the rook or pinning the queen seems to win (30... Qf7 31.Qh8+ Ke7 32.Rg7 + -; 30... Kf7 31.Qh7+ Ke6 32.Rg6 + -). A.3.c.ii) 28... Nc4 29.Rg5+ Kf8 30.Re1 Rc2 31.Qh4 as in A.3.c.i. A.3.d) 26... Kg8 27.Bxf6 looks similar to A.3.c.
A.3.e) 26... Rg6 27.Qh7+ is disastrous for Black.
B) 22... Qc8 23.Be5+ and mate in two.
C) 22... Bg4 23.Be5+ and Black loses the queen or is mated. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | Cheapo by the Dozen: I examined most other knight moves first, but I think the answer is 22 Nxf7, clearing e5 for the bishop. Declining the knight is terrible, as in 23 Nxf7 Qc8
24 Be5+ Kh7
25 Qxh6+ Kg8
26 Qg6#
So the main line starts
22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+
Most Move 23 options for Black fail badly, for example: 22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+ Kg8
24 Qg6+ Kf8
25 Qxh6+ Kg8
26 Qh8#
So the main line becomes
22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+ Rf6
24 hg gh
25 Qxg5+ Kf7
26 Qh5+ Kg7/Kg8
Black's rook is pinned either against the king on g7 or against the square h8; he needs to break that pin before White can push his pawn to g5. But pin-breaking alone gives us something like: 22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+ Rf6
24 hg gh
25 Qxg5+ Kf7
26 Qh5+ Kg8
27 g4 Qa8
28 g5 Rc6
29 Qh8+ Kf7
30 Qg7+ Ke8
31 Bd6+ Kd8
32 Qf8+
The one Black try I see for improvement is ... Re6 to block the e-file. That could give us: 22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+ Rf6
24 hg gh
25 Qxg5+ Kf7
26 Qh5+ Kg8
27 g4 Qc8
28 g5 Re6
29 g6 Be8
30 Qh7+ Kf8
31 g7+
and the White pawn queens safely.
The most subtle point I see in all this is that Be6 could greatly inhibit the queening effort if Re6 didn't block it. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | Cheapo by the Dozen: <Once>'s friend Fritz says my line wasn't in the top three. But I see nothing in the game line or discussion to convince me it doesn't work too. Am I missing something, or did I again solve a weekend puzzle?? |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | DWINS: <Cheapo by the Dozen>, I let Stockfish 5 take a whack at the position beginning with White's 27th move and although your move, 27.g4, does win, it is significantly weaker than the alternatives. Stockfish gives the best line as 27.g4 Rcc6 28.Qg5+ Kf8 29.Qh4 Qe7 30.Qh8+ Kf7 31.Re3 Nc4 32.Bxf6 Qxf6 33.Qh7+ Kf8 34.Qxd7 Nxe3 35.fxe3 (2.79) |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | abuzic: <21.Bxd5> Rxg3 22.fxg3 Nxd5 23.Nxd7 Qxd7 24.hxg5 Rh8
click for larger view
white is much better, but it's not over yet.
Stronger was 21.Ng4 with threats of Qxh6+ and Be5+ and black should resign soon
click for larger view |
|
Oct-25-14
 | | Penguincw: Yay! I got the first few moves: 22.Nxf7, 23.Be5+ and 24.hxg5. Good enough for me on a Saturday puzzle. :) |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | diagonalley: <Once> .... thanks chum! ... an excellent transcript in the style of bronstein! |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | kevin86: Nice ring around the rosie for the queen. |
|
Oct-25-14
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi,
click for larger viewLike most I found (remembered?) 22.Nxf7 and the follow up till here.
click for larger viewAnd stopped. Not sure if I was calculating of recalling. Very likely the latter. 'A Rook lift and wins...' was rolling around my memory cells. Freddy Reinfled's book of Prize Winning games is one of my near the board books when I want a fix. (page 110).
click for larger viewA few of us seemed to have stopped here and this was anticpated by Fred when he wrote his book 50+ years ago. His note here reads:
"Has White's attack come to a standstill?"
Looks like all our thinking (and remembering) '...came to a standstill.') ----
Going to nit-pick ONCE.
He said in jest that Knights sac themselves on f7 more times than they have a bath. OK. But not as often as a Bishop.
Yes I have been sad enough to find out which piece has sacced the most on f7 from my 6 million OTB DB. The Bishop is a clear winner. You are still reading this.
Good...Then you are just as sad as me.
From what opening, moves 3-5, does the Bishop sac itself on f7 the most often? The Alekhine Defence!
EH?
1.e4 Nf6 2.Bc4 Nxe4
click for larger view3.Bxf7 etc...etc...
(I've left the backdoor open for a return nit-pick ONCE. It's actually a psuedo sac.) And now a link to a wonderful wee piece of work. This link deserves it's own thread so it can be discussed. (no it's not one of mine.) http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-c...? What the lad has done (always good to see someone more geekier than me) is to run a program over 2 Million master games of chess to see which piece/pawn has survived the most often. The h2 pawn survives the longest (73.92%)
The pieces that often fails to make it the end of any game is the d-pawn! (24.45%) I want to see the win/loss ratio with the d2 pawn. If when the d-pawn survives and the wins tips heavily in White's favour then we have discovered the secret of chess. Hold the d-pawn. So give that link a wee look. The lad has put some effort into it and you can always slip into any conversation: "Did you know that the Queen's Rooks (those on a1 and a8) tend to stay on the board longer than any other piece. " a1 Rook - 55.20%
a8 Rook - 55.21%
er....that's it. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | JTV: 22. Nxf7 Rxf7 23. Be5+ Rf6 24. hxg5 25. Qxg5+ Kf7 26. Qh5+ Kg8 Is a given. But 27. Rb1? I had 27. Qh4. If black were to play, say 27...Rc6 I would have the 3rd rank all for myself for my rooks to come out on to attack the unprotected king. Thus, Rh3 is blacks only answer to 27. Qh4. It would look something like this. 27. Qh4 Rh3 28. Qg5+ Kf7 29. Bxf6 Qxf6 30. Qxf6+ Kxf6 31. gxh3 Nc4! and white has a comfortable lead... |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | Cheapo by the Dozen: Thanks, <DWINS>! I'll still claim success. 2.79 is a solid winning margin, and one could always adjust over the board too as a line unfolds. |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | gofer: My guess is...
22 Nxf7 Rxf7
23 Be5+ Rf6!
24 g5 hxg5
25 hxg5 hxg5
26 Qxg5+ Kf7
27 Qh5+ ...
I think that Kg7, Kf8 and Kf7 are all losing, but I am struggling against... 27 ... Kg8
click for larger viewSo what next???
~~~
Ahhh! Almost <anything> is the answer, well that makes me
much happier, if not for any good reason as I didn't know that
any move was winning... |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | haydn20: < Penguincw: Yay! I got the first few moves: 22.Nxf7, 23.Be5+ and 24.hxg5. Good enough for me on a Saturday puzzle. :) > Nice to see I'm not alone in this! I doubt I would see the sac in my own game--if I did, I might take it on spec--could NEVER follow all the variations. <SallySimpson> Many thanks for the stats, from a fellow geek. |
|
Oct-25-14
 | | chrisowen: A kind frame knight f7 lift and victor flights,
scathe f7 having a toe poke at g7 a king bodes well for light should have gone elevate 8d lans fluff more secure abreast ave in f6 a dint trap prime the gun route knight f7 one ha way the lads jazzy proof as ever flock a mind for won key over delve aim cred i efface off at cad a flight lane glean a dutiful crum in f7 ear ebony am roster bemoans
lack of room in fly food for thought as king g7 bad call good was a fluff f6 in furnish having question of a fashin a co cockles right rook free, beach am determine a pin clink in hard it is ardent in aim afraid aleap to good to be true a boon 20...Kg7 it book in a slot f6 hot water bottle bounce in board it ardous in ive aim bowl over cool e5 raise the roof occular eye rave stone the crow e5 in white has a plan live e5 for freedom knight sac around cooey a nod over from
above g7 as corroborate the drill corrosive venom corridor balt coot e5 like geese a gaggle g7 around dive bomb free cormorant and clove orange, boom glorify oh door f7 glorious ascension guffaw g7 gutoff cast gain for sake e5 garrot guess age cold change local i bash out hinch a lift hush over the board it ardent in aim to has over get a goof hash said to hilight basically queen's a fag pin h5 germane 8d famile on form get off drive goggles at his majesty g8 should stay put kind sputter d8 up on time a culpa f6 boggle down good goring an gashed g7 i ply glugging a king eg goofball in safe got good change fang cage e5
flinch f7 i rest my case lunge affable disrobe 8d feel good game inkling ace a gog match accent and accustom cinch acute knight f7 low in under the bridge fervious as form mac to cog dabble g7 hoof over aorta 20...Qf6 boon and bond border boast f6, survey the landsacpe ok extra protective measure bus cable wire e5 dotter f7 ash a h5 comes about in h8 a turn off once black rooks up d8 right unguard it ardly again needs to be said bod stove pot calls the kettle g7 black lack lustre croon ie over to candiadte arms e5 in flights |
|
Oct-25-14
 | | Jimfromprovidence: Even with 26...Kg7 I'm suspecting that 27 Rb1 is also playable.
click for larger viewFor example, if black does not retreat his rook to c6 and instead plays 27...Bb5 to stop the rook lift, white can attack on the other flank with 28 g4. 
click for larger view |
|
| Oct-25-14 | | IFNB: I think Reti's tactical weakness may be a bit overstated. |
|
| Oct-26-14 | | morfishine: Good to see a number of players emphasize the strength of Rb1, no matter what move the rook is played there. Well, 22.Nxf7 was the first move I analyzed, and again I fell into the distressing trend of dismissing the correct starting move. I thought after
22.Nxf7 Rxf7 23.Be5+ Rf6 24.hxg5 hxg5 25.Qxg5+ Kf7 26.Qh5+ Black
could play 26...Kg7 and White could only repeat or spend a tempo bringing up
another piece. But Black correctly played 26...Kg8 seeing what I didn't, mainly
that after 26....Kg7 27.Bxf6+ Qxf6 28.Re5 White has a winning attack No use bemoaning
I settled on <22.Rb1> trying to overload the Black Queen. After a mere half move
this is the position I stared at for quite some time:
click for larger viewWhite threatens 23.Rxb6 followed by 24.hxg5 so what is best for Black move 22?
First, if the Knight moves, 23.Rxb7 is just too strong; For example 22.Rb1 Nc4
23.Rxb7 Nxe5 24.Bxe5+ f6 25.hxg5 fxe5 26.Qxh6+ Kf7 27.Rxe5 White's piece sac
has left Black all tied up with all kinds of threats like Qe6+ or g6+:
click for larger view
So it appears the Bishop must move necessitating analyzing a multitude of possible
squares. But where? I concluded the Bishop must stay on the c8 - h3 diagonal
thinking that 22...Bc6 allows 23.Rxb6 Qxb6 24.hxg5
Foremost, the Black Queen is tied to <g5> not wanting to allow White to play 23.hxg5
Both 22...Be6 & 22...Bc6 seem to allow 23.Rxb6 followed by 24.hxg5; Dizzily, I
figured 22...Bf5 was best, but after 22...Bf5 23.Rxb6 Qxb6 24.hxg5 hxg5
25.Qxg5+ Bg6 26.Bf4 Qxd4 27.Qh6+ Kg8 28.Nxg6 fxg6 29.Qxg6+ Qg7
30.Qxg7+ Kxg7 31.Be5+ White has won a piece:
click for larger view***** |
|
| Jun-25-22 | | tbontb: After 20.Qh5 Black is effectively lost, as Reti shows beautifully. Instead of moving the defending N on f6, Black can try 19....Ba4 20.Bxa4 Nxa4 21.Ng4 Rxg3 22.fxg3 Nc3 which maintains approximate equality. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 22.Nxf7