< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 3 ·
|Sep-02-12|| ||Gregor Samsa Mendel: I figured that it had to start with 27 Bg5+, but got lost in the details shortly after that. Still, it's probably the closest I've ever been to actually solving a Sunday puzzle.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||An Englishman: Good Evening: Not. Even. Close. Great combination. It is a sound combination, right?|
|Sep-02-12|| ||diagonalley: blimey... i got nowhere near this one... tsheshkovsky must be one cool customer|
|Sep-02-12|| ||al wazir: I got the first few moves, but that's all. No way I would have played 27. Bg5+ without seeing the whole line.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||consul: <al wazir>, which line would you have played? I started with Bxb4+, and although it's not the strongest, is still not bad. In the text move there's much more than the exchange...|
|Sep-02-12|| ||JRMenezes: 27. Bg5+ f6 [if 27... Bf6 28. BxB+ KxB 29. Qh4+ Kg7 (if Rg5 PxP+)30. PxP]|
28. fxe6 Rxg5 [if 28. ...PxP 29. QxB RxB or Pxb 30. Qf6+ or Qxf6+ and Black may lose a rook in a few moves] [if 28. ...PxB 29. QxB threatening Qf6+ 29. ...Rbf8 30. Rxf8 Rxf8 (if Kxf8 Qf6+) 31. Qg7+]
29. exd7+ Be5 [if 30. ...Re5 31. Qg7+ Kd8(if 31. ...Kd6 RxP+ and loses Queen in next move with check)] [if 28... Kd6 29. Re6+ and Black loses Queen in next move with check] [if 28... Kf8 or Kf7 QxR] [if 28... Kd8 29. Re8+ Kc7 30. Rc8+ Rxc8 31. PxR=Q+]
30. RxB+!! RxR [if 30... Kf7 or Kf8 31. QxR] [if 30... Kd6 Re6+ and Black loses Queen in next move with check] [30... Kd8 31. Re8+ Kc7 32. Rc8+...]
31. Qg7+ Kd8 [if 31... Kd6 32. QxP+ Re6 (if 32...KxP 33. Rd1+ Kc7 34. Qxe5+ Kb7 35. Qe7+ and Black may lose Queen) 33. Rd1+ Kc7 (if 33... Kc5 Qxe5+ and black loses Queen) 34. Qxe5+ Kb7 35. QxR+ with 36. d8=Q]
32. Rd1 (threatening 33. Qf8+ Kc7 34. d8=Q+ RxQ 35. QxR+) Qa8 (only good move)
33. Qxf6+ and I think the rest of the game play is very easy to deduce. So explanation is required.
|Sep-02-12|| ||JRMenezes: Would just like to add one more thing.
If 27... Ke8 28. QxB RxB 29. Qh8+ Ke7 30. f6+ Kd6 31. Qd4+ Kc7 32. Qf4+ and Black loses a Rook
|Sep-02-12|| ||sevenseaman: If <CG> really intend the word to convey its dictionary meaning by the difficulty classification 'Insane', it is today.
Looking for a check I debated long and hard between 27. Qh4+ and 27. Bg5+. Ultimately I plumped for <27. Bg5+>. Not much else came to mind. The temptation to peep became stronger than the desire to work harder.|
Having seen it now I do not think I would have been quite up to the denouement produced by Tseshkovsky.
So no credit today.
|Sep-02-12|| ||JeremyBrowne: Can't believe I got this! I spent a lot of time looking at 27.f6+ and 27.Bxb4+ but couldn't make the attack work. I don't know if 29...Be5 was the optimal defence. Perhaps 29..Re5 was better.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||JRMenezes: <QUOTE> JeremyBrowne: Can't believe I got this! I spent a lot of time looking at 27.f6+ and 27.Bxb4+ but couldn't make the attack work. I don't know if 29...Be5 was the optimal defence. Perhaps 29..Re5 was better.</QUOTE>|
if 29. ...Re5 30. Qg7+ Kd8
[if 31. ...Kd6 RxP+ and loses Queen in next move with check)]
31. Re8+ Kc7 32. d8=Q+
|Sep-02-12|| ||bachbeet: I thought of Bg5+ but couldn't see the continuation.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||Once: Hmmm ... when does intuition take over from calculation?|
The opening position is very tense. White's queen is attacked by the Rg8. The black Bd4 is en prise, but if white plays Qxd4 he loses in a heartbeat to Qxg2#.
But the most striking feature is the weird positioning of the black king on e7, and the fact that the white rooks are lined up against him. As white, we would dearly love to rip open the pawn shield and pry the king out, like cracking a lobster claw and eating the meat inside. As a bonus, we might even get a protected passed pawn on the seventh.
So while we could do something meek like retreating the queen, the move that really appeals is Bg5+ and you can just smell the sacrifices we are going to have to make. But just how much are we prepared to pay to open up the enemy king and get a passed pawn? Would sir be prepared to stump up a bishop? Perhaps a whole rook?
In correspondence or in the sort of desktop analysis that we do, we have the time to calculate out to a mate. But OTB, the players don't have that luxury.
So the question you've got to ask, like Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair, is ... do you feel lucky, punk? Or more precisely, did Tseshovsky see this one all the way to mate or did he trust to intuition at some point that he had a winning position?
And here I just don't know. I've seen some GMs say that they would calculate incredibly long lines to a conclusion and others who say that they stop after so many plies, trusting to judgment that they've got a good position.
Like several others today I got part way into the game line, but certainly nowhere near all the way. How far would the players have seen under game time constraints? I would love to know.
Incidentally, this position is fun...
click for larger view
White has just played 32. Rd1 for a GOOT position where black is a whole rook up but can't stop the white attack. The white queen checks somewhere along the back rank, the pawn queens and it's all too gruesome for words. I certainly didn't get that far when analysing in my head.
|Sep-02-12|| ||Yogi Darwin: Intuition told me that Bg5+ is White's best move. Like others here, that's as far as I got. I am quite content with finding the first move when faced with really challenging puzzles like this one. <Paul Morphy> when asked how many moves he sees ahead, replied, <"One. But it's always the right one!">|
|Sep-02-12|| ||JRMenezes: <QUOTE> Once: Hmmm ... when does intuition take over from calculation?</QUOTE>|
I do agree with what u are trying to say. Though the puzzle has been given starting from move 27, I don't think Tseshkovsky could have calculated that far. I think moves 27 to 29 were played to get a favourable position against the Black king and which were almost forced moves for Black. I think moves 27 to 29 were based on what u call "intuition". I think the sacrifice at 30. Rxe5+ is the point where u know that Tseshkovsky had actually started to calculate for a certain win. And though 32. Rd1 is a really fantastic move, it's not very difficult to get if u know that u have a pawn at d7 which prevents black's rook from blocking a check to the king.
|Sep-02-12|| ||JeremyBrowne: <JRMenezes: if 29. ...Re5 30. Qg7+ Kd8 31. Re8+ Kc7 32. d8=Q+ >
This does not make sense as 31. Re8+ is impossible because the black rook blocks it.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||sevenseaman: Studying Tseshkovsky's line, 32...Qa8 was the most difficult move for me to decipher the import of. I can see now that Black's aim is to strengthen the back rank but I am not truly convinced even now that that is best use the Q could have been put to. It makes no contribution in the following developments |
After the game score ending viz;
27. Bg5+ f6 28. fxe6 Rxg5 29. exd7+ Be5 30 Rxe5+ Rxe5 31. Qg7+ Kd8 32. Rd1 Qa8 33. Qxf6+ Re7 34. Qf8+
I'd imagine the winning sequence would have been;
34...Kc7 35. Qxe7 Rd8 36. Qd6+ Kb7 37. Qxb4+ Ka7 38. Qc5+ Kb7 39. Rb1# 1-0.
|Sep-02-12|| ||gofer: My guess would be...
<27 Bg5 ...>
27 ... Rxg5 28 Qxg5 Bf6 29 Qg3
27 ... Bf6 28 Bxf6+ Kxf6 29 fxe6+ Ke7 30 exf7+
27 ... f6 28 fxe6 Rxg4 29 exd7+ Kd8 30 Re8+ Kc7 31 Rc8+
27 ... Kd6 28 Qxd4+
So that just leaves two other king moves...
27 ... Ke8 28 fxe6 (fxe6 Qh5+ ) dxe6 29 Qxd4 Rxg5 30 Qh8+ (Ke7 Qf6+ ) Kd7 31 Rxf7+ Kd6 32 Qxb8+ Kc5 33 Rc7
<27 ... Kf8>
<28 fxe6 dxe6>
<29 Rxe6! ...>
29 ... Qd7?
30 Be7+! Qxe7
31 Rxe7 Rxg4
32 Rexf7+ Kg1
33 hxg4 b3
34 axb3 Rxb3
<29 ... Rxg4>
<30 Rxc6 Rxg4>
<31 hxg4 Kg7!>
<32 Rf5 b3>
<33 axb3 Rxb3>
Black has no attack game over!!
Hmmm, I missed <29 ... Bxe5> in the main line, so no points today... Pity!
|Sep-02-12|| ||gofer: For those that like this sort of thing...
|Sep-02-12|| ||JRMenezes: < JeremyBrowne: <JRMenezes: if 29. ...Re5 30. Qg7+ Kd8 31. Re8+ Kc7 32. d8=Q+ > This does not make sense as 31. Re8+ is impossible because the black rook blocks it.>|
Oh I am so sorry. Actually I had just copied and pasted this from my earlier comment for move 30... Kd8.
But 29... Re5 does look like a good defence though white still has a strong attack, after 29... Re5 30. Qg7+ Kd8 31. Qf8+ KxP 32. QxR...
|Sep-02-12|| ||morfishine: My streak of Sunday misses continues unabated...|
|Sep-02-12|| ||Robin Gitte: <JRMenezes> Excellent commentary. Thanks.|
|Sep-02-12|| ||johnlspouge: < <An Englishman> wrote: Good Evening: Not. Even. Close. Great combination. It is a sound combination, right? >|
Toga awards 27.Bg5+ about 2.5 P. Yes, the sacrifice is sound.
|Sep-02-12|| ||Memethecat: 27.Bg5+ Bf6 28.Bxf6+ Kxf6
29.Qh4+ Kg7 (29...Rg5 30.Qh6+ Rg6 31.fxg6)
30.fxe6 dxe6 31.Qf6+ Kh7 32.Qxf7+ mate in 2
or (my favourite)
27.Bg5+ f6 28.fxe6! Rxg5
29.exd7+ Kd7 (29...Be5 30.Rxe5+ fxe5 31.Qxg5+ Kxd7 32.Qg7+ Kd6/e6 33.Rf6+ wins Q)
30.Re8+ Kc7 31.Rc8+ Kb7 (31...Rxc8 32.dxc8=Q+ Kb6/d6 33.Qxd4+ etc)
32.Rxb8+ Kxb8 33.d8=Q+ Kb7 34.Qf3 forcing Q exchange & winning.
27.Bg5+ Kf8 could be worth a look, but I'm done.
Close enough for rock & roll.
|Sep-02-12|| ||David2009: Tseshkovsky vs Marjanovic, 1982 White 27? Insane|
I have stared at this position for some minutes. Black has just offered a Bishop (last move presumably 26...Bg7-d4) which
White cannot take (27.Qxd4?? Qxg2#). The Queen sacrifice 27.fxe6 Rxg4 is premature (28.exf7+ Kf8), which leaves 27.Bg5+ combining defence and attack.
Black has a number of options. Taking the weakest ones first, (A) 27...Bf6 28.Bxf6+ Kxf6 29.fxe6+ agreeably exposes the Black king; (B) 27...Kf8
28.Bh6+ Ke7 29.fxe6! and if 29...Rxg4 30.exf7+ and queens with CHECK next move e.g. 30...Kd6 31.f8=Q+ Rxf8 32.Bxf8+ Kc7 33.hxg4 with two Rooks and the g4 passed Pawns for the Queen.
This should win on material. This leaves only 27...f6 when White can choose between the cautious 28.Qxf4 Rxg5 29.Qd2 Rbg8 30.Re2
with an unclear position and the bold 28.fxe6!? seeing 28...Rxg4 29.exd7+ Be5 30.Rxe5+ Rxe5 31.Qg7+ when Black is a Rook up but with disorganised and loose pieces.
In practice I would play 27...Bg5+ quickly and have a long think when and if Black replies f6.
One false trail: 27...Bxb4+? d6 and White's pieces are hanging.
Time to check:
Well. I got some of it. Here's the puzzle position:
click for larger view
(Tseshkovsky vs Marjanovic 1982 27?) with a link to Craft End Game Trainer: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t.... Against 27.Bg5+ the tenacious robot defends as in the game with 27...f6 28.fxe6 Rxg5 29.exd7+ Be5 30.Rxe5+ Rxe5 31.Qg7+ but then plays 31...Kd6 32.Rxf6+ Re6 33.Qg3+ Kxd7 34.Rxe6 Qxe6 35.Qxb8 Qxc4 to reach
click for larger view
(Tseshkovsky vs Marjanovic 1982 var 35?)
and winning this Queen ending is outside my pay grade. Direct Crafty EGT link if you want to try: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t....
There's a gaping hole in my analysis of the alternative defence Kf8:
click for larger view
(Tseshkovsky vs Marjanovic 1982 var 28?). Crafty rains on my Queen sacrifice parade, (link: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...) finding 30...Re4! winning Q for R. Time is short today, I leave <gofer> to explore his analysis of the final diagram if the link interests him.
<gofer> a small favour: please paste the mate-in-thirteen given in Gipslis vs Razuvaev, 1982.
|Sep-02-12|| ||vinidivici: wowowow. very satisfying sunday puzzle. got the first move 27.Bg5 and the rest was a mess. |
Two thumbs up for the puzzle
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