< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jul-07-12|| ||Ghuzultyy: Very nice!!|
|Jul-07-12|| ||cyclon: I just instinctively felt that 46. -Rd1+ just loses the Rook with some checks in reward without bothering to look forward to see the point behind 46. Ke1 - a Queen offer for mate in case of 46. -Rd1+ 47. Qxd1 Qh4+ 48. Ke2 Qh5+ 49. Ke3, or else Whites King escapes from checks with winning advantage.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||GlennOliver: Fine finish.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||FSR: Maybe I'm missing something. 46.Ke1 looks like 1-0: White threatens 46.Qg6#, 46.Rxd8, 46.f8(Q), and 46.f8(N)+ (followed by 47.Ng6+ and 48.Rh8# or 48.Rf8+, forcing 48...Qxf8). Black has no checks that don't hang his rook or queen.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||chrisowen: Poor game allowing resplendid climax Napier had tonnes of truly |
punishing moves as a side parting 39...qd5 steps up also ar f6 tops
and tails too pawns the green grauss comes over h6p then deadly it
nf7 providing mate threats along back rank in simpleton it her in c3
ha sand a very e8 unstoppable juggernaut since elli d1 can get
swallowed by queen in jam it learn in level it the fleet in foot
junta ke1 would strengthen garden blooming i 49.Kf2 oh my god queen
now interposes f3 lower thy tenderness king escape in flight another
it acked in up win effectively again bag in crash idle royce in f7
promote river card angle as in us clear f8+ kingg8 rind gob 51.ng6+
kf7 all on rf8 romped a grateful h6 eight mate having after or ke2 in!
|Jul-07-12|| ||gofer: Well it's "under-promotion" so I am looking at <46 f8=N+> and I work through
the possible variations and then come back to looking at threats, finally after
a minute or two I notice I am in check! "Way to go Dumb-Ass!" Okay, but the
under-promotion is still my main threat, so I haven't completely wasted my
47 f8=N+ ...
47 ...Kh8 48 Ne6+ Qxe8+ 49 Qxg7#
47 ...Kg8 48 Ne6+ Kf7 49 Rxd8
But very importantly, there is one more varation, if the black queen has gone walk-about (i.e. 46 ... Qg5), where we don't even need our queen! 47 f8=N+ Kg8 48 Ng6+ Kf7 49 Rf8#
So, what is my king move?
<46 Ke1 ...>
This stops all the nasty checks, except one and threatens 47 Qg6+ Kg8/Kh8 48 f8=Q#!
<46 ... Rd1+>
<47 Qxd1 Qh5+>
Black gives up all chances of a win and tries for the draw by perpetual check!
<48 Ke2 ...>
But white doesn't need its own queen due to <1 f8=N+ Kg8 2 Ng6+ Kf7 3 Rf8#>!
48 ... Qh5+ 49 Ke3! Qxf7 50 Qd8 Qxf5 51 Qd3
<48 ... Qg4+>
<49 Ke3! ...>
49 ... Qxd1 50 f8=N+ Kg8 51 Ng6+ Kf7 52 Rf8#
49 ... Qxf5 50 Qd3
<49 ... Qg5+>
<50 Ke4 ...>
Black is running out of checks!
50 ... Qh4+ 51 Kd5
<50 ... Qg2+>
<51 Qf3 Qc2+>
<52 Ke5 >
Time to check...
Black didn't see the threat of the under-promotion, so walked into it...
|Jul-07-12|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: Black is up two pawns, but white has the trumps - two strong f-pawns, one that supports a checkmate on g6 and the other ready to queen. White only needs to deal with the rook check. It took me a while to see any possible difficulty after the obvious|
This leaves black without any useful checks and white has three serious threats: 47.Qg6#, Rxd8, and f8=whatever. Black can't defend, but does have a trick (variation G, below):
A) 46... g5 47.fxg6+ Kg7 48.f8=Q#
B) 46... Qd6/f6 47.Qg6+ Qxg6 48.fxg6+ Kxg6 49.f8=Q is an uninteresting way to win.
C) 46... Qg5 47.f8=N+! Kg8 48.Ng6+ Kf7 (Kh7 49.Rh8#) 49.Rf8# is more interesting.
D) 46... Re2+ 47.Qxe2 has no entertainment value whatsoever.
E) 46... Qxe8+ 47.f7xe8=Q ditto.
F) 46... Qe7+ 47.Rxe7 ditto.
G) 46... Rd1+! (the trick) 46.Qxd1 Qh4+ 47.Ke2 Qg4+ (uh oh - maybe black has a perpetual?) 48.Ke3! (nah) Qg5+ (Qxd1 49.f8=N+! *the point* Kg8/h8 49.Ng6+ forces mate.) 49.Ke4 Qg2+ (Qh4+ 50.Kd5) 50.Qf3 Qc2+ 51.Ke5 Qh2+ 52.Ke6 Qa2+ 53.Qe5 Qe2+ 54.Ke7 and black's out of useful checks.
H) 46... other 47.Qg6#
Time for review...
|Jul-07-12|| ||CHESSTTCAMPS: G. 54.Ke7 should read 54.Kd7.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||Patriot: I think white needs to try 46.Ke1. 46...Rd1+ 47.Qxd1 Qh4+ 48.Ke2 Qh5+ 49.Ke3. Black cannot capture the queen: 49...Qxd1?? 50.f8=N+ Kg8 51.Ng6+ Kf7 (51...Kh7 52.Rh8#) 52.Rf8#. So if white can get out of check he will win. 49...Qxf7 may be black's best bet which is losing anyway.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||kevin86: A superclassic! Marshall promotes AND sacs his queen. Then the new knight and rook form the beautiful Arabian Mate!|
|Jul-07-12|| ||TheTamale: Go, Marshall! What a game.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||hrobert5: I know this is underpromotion week, and I may be missing something here...but, I went outside the box with a straight up queen sac: 46. Qe2 Rxe2 47. Kxe2 ??? Black can't respond with a safe check, so irregardless of what he plays I then 48. f8=Q+ and I like my chances in an endgame with Q & R to Q (with better position.) What are the flaws?|
|Jul-07-12|| ||James D Flynn: White threatens mate in one by Qg6 but he is in check and must move his K or interpose with his Q. 46.Qe2 is no good because Rxe2+ 47 Kxe2 Qd2+ and Black has at least a perpetual. White can certainly afford to sac his Q for a R where his K cannot be effectively checked because he threatens to take the Black Q and also to mate by the under promotion f8=N+ , Kh8 Ng6+ Kh7, Rh8# or Kg8, Ng6+ Kf7, Rf8# . If he could sac his Q for R on e4 he would have a win because Black would have no good checks with his Q. 46.Ke1(not 46.Kg3 Qd3+ 47.Qf3 Qd6+ 48.Qf4(not 48.Kh3 Rh2+ 49.Kg4 Rg2+ 50.Kh3or Kh4 or Kh5 Qh2#) Rd3+(not Rg2+ 49.Kxg2 Qxf4 50.f8=N mates) 49.Kg2(not Kg4 h5+ gives the Black K escape squares via h3 and g4) Qd5+ 50.Kg1 Qxf7 wins for Black) Qd6 46.Qg6+ Qxg6 47.f8=N+ Kg8 48.Nxg6+ Kf7 49.Rf8#|
|Jul-07-12|| ||waustad: Like some others, I saw the underpromotion, but didn't put it all together.|
|Jul-07-12|| ||hrobert5: Yeah, I missed the pawn at c3 covering for Qd2+; should have known there was no other option but the underpromote!|
|Jul-07-12|| ||BOSTER: <Calll> <A Marshall swindle>.|
<CG> shows <POTD> where black game has already lost, and this is a little bit disappointed picture.
Because if they showed the pos.(see diagram) after 22.Rce1 with black to play, where black played <attacking> 22...Rd2, you would have another opinion.
But if they played <defensive> 22...Rd6 they would win.
click for larger view
The continuation should be such this. 23.Ne4 Rg6 24.Rf2 Qxf2+ 25 Kxf2 Rxg5 26.Nxg5 f6 27.Nf7+ Kg8 28.Nd6.
|Jul-07-12|| ||SuperPatzer77: White to move and win - see diagram below:
click for larger view
49. f2!!! h4+, 50. e3! g3+, 51. e4 g2+, 52. f3 c2+, 53. e5 h2+ 54. e6! a2+, 55. d5 e2+, 56. d7! - Now Black has run out of the queen checks!
I prefer 49. f2 better than 49. e2?! because White has to avoid losing his f-pawn on f7.
|Jul-07-12|| ||ajile: Black was totally winning through most of this game until he started losing it with 38..Rd2.|
Position after 38.hxg5:
click for larger view
Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit : 23 ply
1. (-2.81): 18...Rd1 19.Kf2 Rxe1 20.Kxe1 c3 21.Nd3 a5 22.Nc1 c2 23.f6 gxf6 24.gxf6 Qxf6 25.Kd2
2. (-2.14): 18...c3 19.f6 gxf6 20.gxf6 Qxf6 21.Qxc3 Rc5 22.Qd4 Bd5 23.Nf3 Qg7+ 24.Kf1 Qxd4 25.Nxd4
Sometimes it seems famous players get away with swindles just because of their reputations.
|Jul-07-12|| ||gambler: Missed this one. Since fleeing with the king would lead to checkmate, I figured I should just interpose. Thi showever is losing due to the imminent thread of a promoting pawn by black.|
The mating combination is very nice and at least, I saw it, I just picked the wrong defense...
|Jul-07-12|| ||Marmot PFL: Not every day you see a queen sac plus an under promotion|
|Jul-08-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <SuperPatzer77> White can actually still win without his f7 pawn - in some instances it may be the only way to win.|
You should read all the most informed analyses before you make a statement such as, and I quote directly from your post, "White has to avoid losing his f-pawn on f7."
My solution post proves that if need be, White should sacrifice his f7 pawn to win the game.
This established, in the 46.Ke1 Rd1+ 47.Qxd1 Qh4+ 48.Kf1 Qh1+ 49. Kf2! is for sure the best move; but even here, 49. Ke2 wins easily for White.
Therefore your statement of 49. Ke2 being a dubious move is totally erroneous!
|Jul-08-12|| ||SuperPatzer77: <LTJ> I bet my boots the American great Frank James Marshall would have disagreed with your line of 49. e2 so, he himself preferred to choose the best move - 49. f2!! instead of 49. e2. It's because he wouldn't want to lose the White f-pawn on f7.|
<LTJ> Thus, I like Frank Marshall's brilliant move - 49. f2!! better. Black tries to force the perpetual check but he runs out of the queen checks.
<Sevenseaman>, <FSR> and I, <SuperPatzer77>, analyzed the great Frank Marshall's move - 49. f2!! - This is called "Marshall Swindle"!
<LTJ> I'm telling you that the great Frank Marshall's move 49. f2 is a very clever move!
|Jul-08-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <SuperPatzer77> You obviously didn't understand my post!|
Once again, as I already stated in my first post to you, I agree that 49. Kf2!, in the 48. Kf1 line, is the best move.
This said, your statement that 49. Ke2 is dubious is erroneous!
I have proven that White can win without his f7 pawn; and once again, in some lines it is necessary to give up that pawn to win the game!
|Jul-08-12|| ||SuperPatzer77: <LTJ> I really understand your post. |
I just prefer Frank Marshall's brilliant move - 49. f2!! (period). That's called "Marshall Swindle" - that's what I'm talking about.
That's YOUR opinion I really understand. However, it is a little complicated, I admit. We really understand why the great Frank Marshall made a brilliant move - 49. f2!!. We can ask the other grandmasters about that. They sure as heck can give us an excellent explanation. The game was played in 1898 - a long, long time ago.
Please don't make any negative remarks about <Sevenseaman> and me. Just our opinion is different from yours. I really admire Frank Marshall's tactical skills. Please don't criticize anyone's opinion.
Next time, don't be too defensive, OK?
|Jul-08-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <SuperPatzer77> I am glad that you now understand.|
If all you wanted to express is that you liked 49. Kf2! in the 48. Kf1 line, then that's all you had to say: You didn't have to say that 49. Ke2 is dubious because it is not - it too is winning!
My original post to you was so as to correct you on your mistake and nothing else - period.
I have made no negative remarks about you or sevenseaman.
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