< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 3 ·
|Apr-29-04|| ||unclewalter: just as good is 24. Bg4 or Bh3 |
|Apr-29-04|| ||unclewalter: good enough even, is my move: 24. Be6, with Qf3 and then Qg4. kinda funny--just about anything wins for white...as long as he leaves his queen hanging. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||crafty: 24. g4 xg3 25. xf8+ xf8 26. xf8+ xf8 27. xe6+ (eval 7.42; depth 18 ply; 500M nodes)|
|Apr-29-04|| ||Dudley: So 24.Bxe6+ NxB 25.Qf3 BxR 26.Qf7+ and then? Is that the line you had in mind? I too thought that Bxe6 was the answer but I'm not sure now. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||Dudley: Well crafty seems to have found a better way. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||crafty: 24. xe6+ xe6 25. f3 xf2+ 26. xf2 e7 27. e2 a5 (eval 1.68; depth 15 ply; 500M nodes)|
|Apr-29-04|| ||gerando: What happens after 24 Bg6 Ng6? 25 Ng6 Bg3 26 Rf8 Rf8 27 Rf8 Qf8 28 Nf8 and white has won a mere pawn. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||ruylopez900: A nice mating solution by White, I had the same configuration (w/ slightly more pieces on the board) a different way.|
a)24...Nxe6 25.Qxh4 Qc8 (Qxh4 26.Rf8+ Rxf8 27.Rxf8++) 26.Qe7
b)24...Rxe6 25.Rxf8+ Qxf8 26.Rxf8++
There are my two lines, obviously A is Black's best line. At the end of that line if Black captures the Queen, then the doubled Rooks mate the King, otherwise White gets a nice attack going.
|Apr-29-04|| ||ruylopez900: Oops, Correction to line A, White does not win in it. After "admiring" it for a few minutes I realized that the Doubled Rooks cannot mate since bot the Rook, Knight and King protect the f8 square. So dismiss my line, it only works if Black plays line B for you. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||clocked: 24 Bg6 Ng6? 25 Rf7 is forced mate |
|Apr-29-04|| ||karlzen: That's very unusual for Torre! ;) He got a perfect Colle attack with the dark-squared bishop at g5 instead of c1 and he won easily.|
After 24.Bxe6+ easiest is 24...Nxe6 25.Qf3 Bxf2+ 26.Rxf2 (a more human move) 26...Qe7 27.Qg4! (threatening Nxg6) 27...Ng7 28.Rf7 Qxf7 29.Nxf7 Kxf7 30.Qf4+ winning a piece either by Bxg7 and Qc7+ or Nf5 g4.
<gerando>, after your line, 28...Bc8 traps the white knight and wins the game for black. Thus 26.Rf7 is better which should give white the advantage in the o-c bishop endgame after the transition. Since black's bishop would be terrible, white might win with the king to e5. Simpler is, however, 25.Rf7! (Bxg3; Rg7+ and Nf7#).
|Apr-29-04|| ||metriktracer: Why doesn't 24. Qxh4 work? |
|Apr-29-04|| ||clocked: Qxh4? Qxh4 Bh3 Qxh6 Ng4 Qh4 Nf6+ Kf7 Nxe8 Qxf2+ Rxf2 Kxe8 |
|Apr-29-04|| ||Whitehat1963: Didn't see this one at all. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||kevin86: After 27...xe8 28 xf8+ xf8 29 xf8 white is up a piece}, or is there anything better? |
|Apr-29-04|| ||patzer2: <Kevin86> After 27. Rxf2 I see nothing better than winning the Black Queen with a piece advantage. If 27...Qxe8, then your line with 28. Rxf8+ wins in this manner. If 27...Nf6, then 28. Nf7+ also wins back the Queen with a piece plus. |
In mastering a difficult combination, it sometimes helps to break the combination down into its component parts (i.e. subvariations or subcombinations) and work backwards.
First, visualize the win pointed out above after 27. Rxf2 for an easy starting point.
Second, visualize the win in the position after 26. Bxe8! and the possible reply 26...Qxe8 leading to mate after 27. Rxf8+ 28. Qxf8 Rxf8#.
Third, reexamine the position after 24. Bxe6!! (the solution to today's 24?) 24...BxQ(g3) and 25. Bf7+ Kh8.
After visualizing the winning possibilities after 26. Bxe8!, and going over them a few times until you can see them quickly, finding the win after 24. Bxe6!! BxQ(g3) 25. Bf7+ Kg8 should be much easier.
|Apr-29-04|| ||patzer2: After 24. Bxg6 Nxg6!?, as clocked notes, White's quickest win is with 25. Rf7!!, forcing mate after 25...Qf6|
[if 25...Bxg3, then 26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. Nf7#] or [if 25...Qe7, then 26. Rxe7 Bxe7 (26...Rxe7?? 27. Rf8#) 27. Nxg6 Bf6 28. Ne5+ Bg5 29. Qxg5+ Kh8 30. Nf7#] or [if 25...Kh8, then 26. Rxh7+ Kxh7 27. Qxg6+ Kh8 28. Qg7#]
26. R1xf6 Bxf6 (if 26...Bxg3, then 27. Rg7+ Kh8 28. Nf7#) 27. Rxf6 Bc8 28. Rxg6+ Kf7 (if 28...hxg6, then 29. Qxh6+ Kh8 30. Qg7#) 29. Rg7+ Kf6 30. Qf4#
|Apr-29-04|| ||Dudley: The 25. Bf7+ is a very professional type of move-necessary to remove one of the defenders of f8. <patzer2> I am confused- is the more correct answer Bxe6, Bxg6 as actually played, or crafty's Bg4 on move 24? |
|Apr-29-04|| ||Dudley: To me it seems that the computer line of 24.Bg4 is the cleanest win. |
|Apr-29-04|| ||patzer2: <Dudley> Actually 24. Bxe6 or 24. Bg4
or 24. Bh3 are all clear wins. My personal preference is 24. Bxe6 because it provides for more tactical opportunities and seems a bit more forcing than the two strong alternatives. |
In my opinion, the best move in a combination is the one for which you can clearly see your way through the variations for a win. The line 24. Bg4 (or 24. Bh3 transposing) 24...Bxg3 25. Rxf8+ Rxf8 26. Rxf8+ Qxf8 27. Bxe6+ Kh8 28. Bxf8 with a piece up and a clear win may be the easiest for most players to see (especially under time controls). And if so, it is their "best move."
|Apr-29-04|| ||Dudley: After I looked at 24.Bxe6+ NxB I see that it is not a win at all-see crafty and ruy lopez 900 at the top of this page. If 24...RxB it works ok though. The problem is that a knight always protects the square it moves from. |
|Apr-30-04|| ||patzer2: <Dudley> Although I meant to type that 24. Bxg6!! (not 24. Bxe6!!) is a forced win, along with 24. Bg4! or 24. Bh3!, 24. Bxe6!! is also a win that can be added to this list.|
I think the "best move" is 24. Bxg6!! as actually played in the game, with 24. Bg4! or 24. Bh3! being a close second best and 24. Bxe6+!! being a good third winning alternative.
Note that after 24. Bxe6! Nxe6 25. Qf3 Bxf2+ 26. Rxf2 (if 26...Re7 27. Ng4+-)26...Qe7 27. Qg4! Ng7 28. Rf7 Qxf7 29. Nxf7 (improving on both Crafty's and Fritz 8's initial analysis) Karlzen does indeed find a forced win after 24. Bxe6+!! Analyzing the position after this sequence and Kralzen's recommended 27. Qg4! (also winning and apparently even stronger here is 27. Qg3!!), Fritz 8 rates it as a clear win for White (+2.91 @ 15 depth & 727kN/s).
|Aug-05-04|| ||patzer2: White has a win early in the game with 13. Qh3!! against the weakened Black castled position. |
|Oct-02-04|| ||boyhimud: Like the masters always say, control the center. |
|Oct-02-04|| ||Kean: i guess black didnt knew how to react to whites system, d4,nf3,bg5 and later ne5 and f4. the counter attack in the queenside was slow and his white bishop trapped, and finally with 22.rf5 Torre simply saw deeper, the trademark of a genius |
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