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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
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Sep-29-11
 | | Shams: <tatarch> After 25.hxg4 Qg5:  click for larger viewWhite's only chance is to block with Bh3, but 26.Rf1-[somewhere] Qh6 27.Qf1 Kg7 and ...Rh8 looks lethal. |
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Sep-29-11
 | | Shams: Maybe throw in ...Bxg4 first before ...Kg7. The g-file is a disaster for white, and Black's DSB is just killing him. |
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| Sep-29-11 | | SirChrislov: Rashid is one of those players I wish I knew about when I was learning chess. If someone had shown me a game of his back then, I would've been a fan for life and it definitely would have had an impact in my play. I discovered his games late, when I began wandering this site in 2006. |
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| Sep-29-11 | | coolthing76: Speechless. Alas, no more games like this one nowadays. |
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Sep-29-11
 | | DarthStapler: Another one from one of my favorite players, on my birthday! |
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Oct-01-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Phony Benoni: <Chessdreamer> If you look at the area under the game above, you'll see a note saying that there is an alternate score in the database. This essentially agrees with yours, though there are some differences.
The book <Super Nezh> by Alex Pushkin (Game #4, p. 41) agrees with the alternate score. He quotes a bit of Nezhmetdinov's own analysis, so you'd think his version would be definitive--but that's no guarantee. Nezh, I seem to recall, didn't keep his game scores and did his analysis from memory. We probably need to find some original sources to be sure, but it's looking like the pretty version given here might be just analysis.> <Phony Benoni> Nezh's autobiography also gives a different score, making three, as has already been pointed out by another kibbutzer. I find it a bit shoddy on the part of CG.com to publish the "prettiest score" which is almost certainly not what actually happened. I really doubt Lilienthal "didn't see the mate coming" or decided to "let Nezh make the pretty moves" just for the sake of it. I think the administrators care more about making a "cute pun" and posting the "sexiest game score" than they do about actual chess history. I find this appalling, and I expect better from this administration. A great deal better. Also, that's almost certainly a myth that Nezh did his analysis "from memory." It's possible this myth gained ground because of a misreading or misunderstanding of two passages from Nezh's autobiography: <"Before the next All-Union Category I Championship I was hospitalized for a long time. I took along a book of Kubbel's endgame studies and solved them without a board in my spare time."> And this:
<"Unfortunately I was unable to keep even one game played between 1936 and 1946."> This was due to personal upheaval in his life, including World War II. Nezh does not post any analysis of games played during this period, indicating that he liked to have an actual game score in front of him before printing any analysis. <Nezhmetdinov's Best Games of Chess>
Rashid Nezhmetdinov
Caissa edtions, 2000
pp. 10-11
Given how assiduous Nezh was about analysis, and about his annotations to the many games in his autobiography, I should think the likelihood of him being in the habit of analyzing "from memory" is close to Zero. |
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Oct-02-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <jessicafischerqueen> I shouldn't have made that remark about Nezhmetdinov's style of analyzing without finding and citing the source. I'm very conscious of how errors in game scores and information can affect the historical record, but it's easy to forget that even erroneous casual remarks add to the confusion as well. I was going to discuss how the administrators decide which game score is correct, but since I don't actually know I'm going to apply the first paragraph of this post and shut up. |
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Oct-02-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Phony Benoni> you are precisely the sort of man who shouldn't shut up. You care about chess history, you do chess history, and you know much more than me and likely many others about how the administrators make decisions. It strikes me that which game score to publish is among the most important kind of decision. I'd like to believe that some actual research is involved in that process- I see no evidence that is the case here. I doubt the administrators have read any of the kibbutzes on this page. I'm going to email them and find out for myself.
It won't do, my dear <PB>, the published game score on this page is bollocks and I want an accounting for it. I've got Pishkin's book and Nezhmetdinov's own autobiography open, in front of me, right now, which is how I know the game score here is bollocks. Chess history is already exciting by itself, it doesn't need to be "jazzed up" by posting "extra exciting, albeit totally bogus," game scores on a site that should take itself a good deal more seriously. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | Albertan: Chessdreamer's version of the game (that it ended on move 25) is also the game score which I found Chessbase Megadatabase 2011 has in its database: [Event "URS-ch sf"]
[Site "Baku"]
[Date "1951.??.??"]
[Round "17"]
[White "Lilienthal, Andor"]
[Black "Nezhmetdinov, Rashid"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E67"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "1951.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "19"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1998.11.10"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. g3 exd4 6. Nxd4 g6 7. Bg2 Bg7 8.O-O O-O 9. b3 Nc5 10. b4 Ne6 11. Nb3 Nd7 12. Bb2 Ne5 13. Na5 Nd4 14. Na4 c5 15.a3 Bg4 16. Bxd4 cxd4 17. h3 Be6 18. c5 b5 19. cxb6 axb6 20. Bxa8 Qxa8 21. Nxb6 Qa6 22. Na4 Bxh3 23. Rc1 d3 24. exd3 Qa8 25. f3 Ng4 0-1 This score is also found at the database of www.365chess.com: http://www.365chess.com/search_resu... |
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| Oct-03-11 | | Albertan: This database also has the game ending on move 25 result: 0-1:
http://www.timeforchess.com/chess/g... |
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| Oct-03-11 | | kamalakanta: Hi! Jessica and David, I also have Pishkin's book (paid top dollars for it; had to get it!) The score on this page is incorrect from move 5! In Pishkin's book, Nezh plays 5...exd4...Also, Albertan, Pishkin's score does not end with 25...Ng4, but continues with 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Qd5 28.Rc2 Bxf1 and White resigns. 0-1 Yes, the administrators of this site should research and find the correct version of this game. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | kamalakanta: Also, <SimonWebbsTiger> is correct; the move in the score on this site, 17.Bxb7, never happened in the actual game. 17.h3 was played by Nezh.
So the score above is "rubbish", as they say in England. |
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Oct-03-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <kamalakama> I don't know if it's entirely the administrators' responsibility to research and fix this game. There is still a lot of confusion about the actual score, and it's going to take some effort to unravel. For instance, from reading the kibitzing I get the idea that the Pishkin biography, the Nezhmetidinov autobiography, and the various online databases may not be in full agreement. Besides, we have access to resources that the admins might not. I think we need to see: 1) the full score from the Pishkin book (I can get this at home later if nobody wants to bother); 2) the full score from the Nezhmetidinov book;
3) I keep seeing references to Nezhmetdinov's "17.Bxb5 h5" note. Is that the whole note, or does it continue and include the text of the score we have here? If this score is bogus, it would be nice to know where it came from. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | Hot Logic: <Deefstes>
At first I thought that after 18...Qxa8 there was some sort of strong mating threat on g2 due to weak light coloured squares etc. but I can't see how Black gets past 19.f3 either... |
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| Oct-03-11 | | kamalakanta: David,
The whole score (It is all I have; Jessica has the Nezh book) in the Pishkin book is as follows: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6 7.Bg2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 Nc5 10. b4 Ne6 11.Nb3 Nd7 12. Bb2 Ne5 13.Na5 Nd4 14. Na4 c5 15.a3 Bg4 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.h3 Be6 18.c5 b5 19.cxb6 axb6 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nxb6 Qa6 22.Na4 Bxh3 23.Rc1 d3 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Qd5 28.Rc2 Bxf1 White Resigns. 0-1 |
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| Oct-03-11 | | kamalakanta: Regarding 17.Bxb7 h5, which, by the way, could not have happened, because he actually moved 18...b5, the quote in Pishkin's book is as follows: " 17.h3...After a long think, Lilienthal believed his opponent and refused to take the b7 pawn. Let's examine what his decision means-was it a fatal hesitation or prudence? Observe: A. 17.Bxb7 Re8! [Nezh gives the following variation in his analysis: 17...h5 but this is hardly correct: 18.Bxa8 Qxa8 19.f3 Bh3 20.Rf2 d3 21.e4 Nxf3+ 22.Qxf3 Bxa1 23.Nb3 Be5 24.Qxd3. The attack wasn't a success; the move 17...h5 derives no benefit for black] 18.Bxa8 [18.f3 does not strengthen the position: 18...Bh3 19.Bxa8 Qxa8! 20.Rf2 d3 21.Ra2 Bh6! 22.f4 Ng4 23.exd3 Nxf2 24.Rxf2 Bxg7 25.Nb3 Re3! with the most dangerous threat of Qe8]" after some more variation, Pishkin writes: "So, we can conclude that Lilienthal made the wrong decision by not taking on b7. It would have been better to play 17.Nxb7 with equal chances. Now, the initiative is in Black's hands." Until proven otherwise, I assume Pishkin's score is correct, and if I understood correctly, it agrees with Nezhs' book. Maybe Jessica can confirm this. Thanks! |
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Oct-03-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <kamalakanta> Thanks for the Pishkin score and quotes. Reading his analysis of the game makes it sounds like he is working from Nezhmetdinov's own analysis, so he probably does have an accurate score. Here's what we have so far: 1) The score given on this page appears to be analysis, either by Nezhmetdinov or based on his work. 2) We have three other versions of the game:
a) An alternate score given by chessgames.com: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/dupe... 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 g6 6.Bg2 Bg7 7.O-O O-O 8.b3 exd4 9.Nxd4 Nc5 10.b4 Ne6 11.Nb3 Nd7 12.Bb2 Ne5 13.Na5 Nd4 14.a3 c5 15.Na4 Bg4 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.h3 Be6 18.c5 b5 19.cxb6 axb6 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nxb6 Qa6 22.Na4 d3 23.exd3 Bxh3 24.Rc1 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Qd5 28.Rc2 Bxf1 0-1 b) Another 28-move version given by Pishkin, possibly based on Nezhmetdinov's own version: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6 7.Bg2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 Nc5 10. b4 Ne6 11.Nb3 Nd7 12. Bb2 Ne5 13.Na5 Nd4 14. Na4 c5 15.a3 Bg4 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.h3 Be6 18.c5 b5 19.cxb6 axb6 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nxb6 Qa6 22.Na4 Bxh3 23.Rc1 d3 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Qd5 28.Rc2 Bxf1 0-1 c) A version found by <Chessdreamer> and <Albertfan> in various online databases: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6 7.Bg2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 Nc5 10.b4 Ne6 11.Nb3 Nd7 12.Bb2 Ne5 13.Na5 Nd4 14.Na4 c5 15.a3 Bg4 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.h3 Be6 18.c5 b5 19.cxb6 axb6 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nxb6 Qa6 22.Na4 Bxh3 23.Rc1 d3 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 0-1 The differences among these are three transpositions and the length of the game. First, did White resign after move 25 or move 28? Here's the position after 25...Ng4:  click for larger viewOver-the-board, I don't know if this is resignable. There are a lot of possibilities for White, and Black's advantage is not at all obvious. By contrast, the position after move 28 is definitely lost. For the transpositions, the chessgames.com alternate score differs from all the others. On sheer numbers the "others" are probably correct, but let's take a brief look anyway. I'll give the chessgames.com alternate score move order first. 1) after <5.g3>:  click for larger view5...g6 6.Bg2 Bg7 7.O-O O-O 8.b3 exd4 9.Nxd4 <vs.> 5...exd4 6.Nxd4 g6 7.Bg2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 2) after <13...Nd4>
 click for larger view14.a3 c5 15.Na4 <vs.> 14.Na4 c5 15.a3. 3) after <22.Na4>
 click for larger view22...d3 23.exd3 Bxh3 24.Rc1 <vs.> 22...Bxh3 23.Rc1 d3 24.exd3 None of these transpositions really seem to matter much. I think that 5...exd4 is probably more likely than 5...g6, simply because I've found that actual games tend to have unusual rather than "standard" move-orders in an attempt to transpose favorably. It would take some close analysis to find differences between the other two lines. In situations like this where worlds collide, the most reputable sources are generally the earliest, or in most cases the players themselves. The Pishkin version, 28 moves with the move order likely used and possibly based on Nezhmetdinov's own work seems the best choice, but to be sure I think we still need to double check the score given by Nezhmetdinov himself. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | kamalakanta: <Phony Benoni>, thanks for your hard work. I will visit this page in the next few days, to see if there are any developments. with gratitude,
Kamalakanta |
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Oct-04-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Here is the score from <Nezhmetdinov's> autobiography- identical to that given in Pishkin, posted above by <Kamalakanta>: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6 7.Bg2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.b3 Nc5 10. b4 Ne6 11.Nb3 Nd7 12. Bb2 Ne5 13.Na5 Nd4 14. Na4 c5 15.a3 Bg4 16.Bxd4 cxd4 17.h3 Be6 18.c5 b5 19.cxb6 axb6 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nxb6 Qa6 22.Na4 Bxh3 23.Rc1 d3 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Qd5 28.Rc2 Bxf1 White Resigns. 0-1 I think that <Rashid Nehzmetdinov> should be credited with being most likely to have the correct score for this game- since he freaking played it, and annotated it himself in his own autobiography. <Nezhmetdinov's Best Games of Chess>
Rashid Nezhmetdinov
Translated by Dale Brandreth
Caissa Editions, 2000
pp. 45-46 |
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Oct-04-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: I'd like to add that ANY GAME SCORE between Grandmasters that ends in checkmate should AUTOMATICALLY be viewed with great suspicion. For obvious reasons. |
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| Oct-04-11 | | kamalakanta: Thanks, Jessica, for confirming that Pishkin and Nezh's books agree! This shows a critical aspect of game- collection books: the author must be a thorough researcher, specially with older games.... |
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Oct-04-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <JFQ> Thanks for providing that information. I have submitted a correction slip. |
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Oct-10-11
 | | chessgames.com: Thanks to some chess fans shining light on this game, we've determined that the score that we used to have was in fact analysis by Nezhmetdinov and not the actual game. You can see that analysis now by clicking on the "alternate score" link under the game diagram. Normally this change would be straightforward; even if a few people played Guess-the-Move on a game we don't like to wipe out everybody's scores just because a few moves transposed. But in this case the real game is so very different (and shorter) than the previous score, it would not make to sense to preserve those old scores. So a few dozen people who played GTM on this one will have their scores wiped out and the par will be reset at zero. Sorry about that, and thanks to those who helped fix the record on this one. |
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Oct-13-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <chessgames.com> Thanks for responding so quickly. |
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Oct-24-11
 | | sevenseaman: White was certainly smarter than me. After the seemingly harmless <29. Qxf1>, it took me some time to see the two move mate via the 'h' file. |
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Later Kibitzing> |