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Later Kibitzing > |
Mar-19-04
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| Sneaky: <karlzen> (and kolobok/boobsmacfadin) Sorry if I came off sounding hostile, but I think that 50% of the people here don't actually try to solve the problems at all, and it seems to me that this is the same bunch which is always complaining about it being easy. If you try to solve a composed problem like one of Sam Loyd, you cannot just "guess" what the winning move might be. I think it was Steinitz who said something like 'You can solve Loyds problems by exhaustively trying each legal move, and you will always find the answer... on the very last move you check.' But these are not composed problems, they happened over the board, and it's often very easy to guess what the combination is, since you already have the enormous advantage of knowing that there is indeed a combination. In this case it could only be Nf6+. (I looked at f6 for a split second then noticed that my rook was hanging.) The point of my post is to show that if you were in a tournament, and this was the position on the board, there are MANY VARIATIONS that have to be worked through before you could play the move with 100% confidence. If you approached this problem this way, it was at least a small challenge to 99% of the users here (most of whom never say a word in these forums). If you can honestly do that in 10 seconds then you should be able to get your NM title in the country of your residence in no time. |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| karlzen: Agreed, that most people probably "cheat". Also agreed that this is much easier than studies by Lloyd and the likes, but Lloyd's version is not "real" chess. It's about impossible to use intuition to solve those studies because they are so very mcuh made-up, often very bizarre. There are no NM title's in my country that I'm aware of. It's not a very complicated situation. I would be able to play Nf6+ after about 10 seconds in a tourney game, yes. I'm not that good, but being a young player my tactical abillities probably exceed my other skills, so it's really not that strange. |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| Jim Bartle: For what it's worth, Nunn's analysis of this game doesn't make any great claims to brilliance for the (2nd) knight sacrifice. He also writes of the final queen "sacrifice": "Pritchett sportingly lets me sacrifice my queen as well." |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| schizoidman: What about 25 Qh6 threatening Qg7++? If 25...Rg8 26.Re8 Qxe8 27. Qxf6 etc.
If 25...Rxe1+ 26.Kd2 and doesn't black run out of checks eventually and them white mates on g7? |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| Taidanii: If I were some of you guys, I'd take a look at <kolobok's> posts on some of the games in the database. He misses clearly obvious moves. I believe he just wanted to hop on the "I'm an awesome chess player and I have outrageous ways of showing it" band wagon. |
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Mar-19-04
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| crafty: 25.  h6  xe1+ 26.  d2 a5+ 27. b4 d5+ 28. xe1 e5+ = (eval 0.00; depth 14 ply; 500M nodes) |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| fatbaldguy: One argument in favor of the "non-predictability" of this puzzle is that Pritchett did not resign on 23 Nf6+. Pritchett is a pretty strong player - we are not talking NN here - and is surely familiar with chess etiquette and how one should not keep playing in a lost position. In fact, fairly often, a puzzle's solution is also the last move of the actual game. The fact that Pritchett fought on until move 26 suggests that, at least at the time Nunn played Nf6+, Pritchett hadn't seen the whole sequence. |
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Mar-19-04
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| alphee: Lots of nice comments :0). I find those puzzles very good as they are real plays and ... due to the time it takes me to work out a solution that could work (and the comments I receive, thanks <karlzen>) I realise I have a long way to go ... I like the "wood pusher" image. By the way, that's true time zone difference and coffee breaks do help! |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| MoonlitKnight: Bragging about solving the puzzle quickly is never necessary. Imagine Kasparov coming to this site and posting comments like "This puzzle was too easy" or such. |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| Benjamin Lau: Cyphelium, I had a piece counter sacrifice in mind. I don't think black can keep the material without being driven off the board, at least not under normal time controls. I think a draw is the best black can hope for. I originally thought of the counter sacrifice 17...Nxe3 18. Qxe3 Ne5 19. f4 o-o 20. Nxe7+ (fxe5?? Bxg5+ wins the queen but you knew that of course, this is just for others following along) Qxe7 21. fxe5 Qxe5 (22. Qa7 can be met with ...Qf4+) 22. Qxe5 dxe5 23. Rxe5 White has a definite advantage (one pawn + good chances of a rook on the seventh rank), but IMO, it doesn't seem like it is enough to force a win in the endgame but I've always been an optimistic person. :) 20. f6! does look good though, and I didn't consider it until you just brought it up. I also contemplated your variation C but did not look very deeply into it. The main reason I suggested ...Nxe3 is because I really don't like white's Bxc4, which obliterates the queenside, and since the knight does nothing most of the game anyway. I also have some new ideas. Perhaps black could play 17...f6!? I have to admit I haven't analyzed it in depth really, but a possible continuation could be 18. Bd4 Nce5 19. f4 o-o 20. fxe5 dxe5. There are probably improvements, but I think the line looks promising, at least at a superficial glance. What do you think? |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| Benjamin Lau: Sneaky, well said, I agree with your points. |
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| Mar-19-04 |
| AoD: It amazes me that someone could look at that position on a board in a tournament and say after ten seconds of looking over the position that they have this game won. It boggles my mind that people are actually that good. I'm not talking about this game in a puzzle where you have to find the winning move, in that case it makes it a lot easier. Ten seconds to be totally confident in a tournament situation that 23 Nf6+ is the correct move to play. |
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| Mar-21-04 |
| karlzen: <Benjamin Lau>, a quick reply: I doubt black can play 17...f6?. It does nothing for black and after 18.Qh5+ Kf8 19.Bxc4 bxc4 20.Ba7 he can resign due to the threats of Bxb8 and Rxe7. |
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| Mar-21-04 |
| Cyphelium: <Benjamin Lau & karlzen> (Starting with BenjaminL) Yes, I agree with you. A draw is the best black can hope for. Considering 17.- Nxe3 18. Qxe3 Ne5 19. f4 0-0 20. Nxe7+ Qxe7 21. fxe5, then I thought 21.- dxe5 (instead of 21.- Qxe5)was playable since maybe black can play 22. Qxe5 Qxg5+. Might be trouble coming on the g-file though. Your suggestion of 17.- f6 is interesting, but isn't the queen check more critical? 17.- f6 18. Qh5+!? Kf8 19. Bxc4 bxc4 20. Bb6 Rxb6 21. Rxe7 looked very strong to me initially, since 21.- Ne5 22. gxf6 is just losing. However, of course blacks gives his queen: 21.- Qxe7 22. Nxe7 Kxe7 23. Re1+ Ke8 24. Qf7 and black has a lot of wood for the queen but is badly coordinated, so maybe white can hope to win? (Continuing with karlzen)
About 17.-Nxe3: 18.Qxe3 Ne5 19.f4 0-0 20.Nxe7+ Qxe7 21.fxe5 dxe5 and now you continued with 22.f6 gxf6 23.gxf6 Qxf6 24.Rg1+ Kh8 and this was a position I'd looked at very briefly, but now I see I should have taken it further. Your suggestion of 25. Rdf1 and the Bxh7 idea indeed looks dangerous, but I wonder if 25.- Qd6!? might be better. Now after 26. Bxh7 Kxh7, 27. Rf3 doesn't threaten anything (as it did after your 25.- Qe7). Also, black threatens to play 27.- Qh6. Does white _really_ have anything special? =) 19.- Bxg5 20. fxg5 0-0 and naturally I also considered 21. f6. After 21.- g6 though I wasn't so sure how to win. White should be better, 22. Ne7+ Kh8 but I didn't see anything decisive (yet). That's why I (again) suggest 19. f6 instead of 19. f4. (See my earlier kibitz, last part.) Egentligen tror jag att vi är ganska överens, visst är svart rutten! |
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| Mar-21-04 |
| Cyphelium: <Benjamin Lau & karlzen> I see that karlzen had the same idea as I against 17.- f6, though his version seems to be simpler than mine. |
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| Mar-21-04 |
| karlzen: <cypheilum>, Two quick replies: 17...Nxe3 18.Qxe3 Ne5 19.f4 0-0 20.Nxe7+ Qxe7 21.fxe5 dxe5 22.f6 gxf6 23.gxf6 Qxf6 24.Rg1+ Kh8 25.Rdf1 Qd6 26.Qg5 threatening mate in one is something special! ;) 19...Bxg5 20.fxg5 0-0 21.f6 g6 22.Ne7+ Kh8 23.Qf4 with the idea of Qh4-h6-g7 which forces win of the exhcange or Re4-h4 with decisive threats. Black has no counterplay. |
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| Mar-21-04 |
| Benjamin Lau: Cyphelium, since you seem to imply that karlzen's continuation is more straightforward, I'll go reply to that one. You're right about the queen check, it is pretty fatal. As you said 18.Qh5+ Kf8 19.Bxc4 bxc4 20.Ba7! is death for black. I had originally envisioned 17...f6 18. Qh6+ Kf8 19. Bxc4 Ne5 with the hope of a blockade. But I later discovered 20. gxf6 Bxf6 21. Nxf6 (not 21...Qxf6?? 22. Bg5 nor 21...gxf6?? 22. Bh6 and forced mate) is gg for black, with hideous threats everywhere (i.e. Bb6 deflection with Qe8#, Rxd6 deflection with Qe8#, etc) and black has no hope. (i.e. a line might run 21. Nxf6 bxc4 (21...bxc4 22. Bb6! 1-0) 22. Rxd6! Bd7 22. Bc5 Qe7 23. Rxe5! 1-0, a fitting final position. |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| Cyphelium: <karlzen> Well, that was pretty embarrassing. =) |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| Benjamin Lau: karlzen has a very sharp eye, I wouldn't be surprised if he is a master or a player with near master strength. |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| Benjamin Lau: Btw, nice profile cyphelium, I'll remember that one. ;) |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| Lawrence: <Ben>, I agree about karlzen, from the acuity of his very first posting I suspected that he might be Pontus Carlsson himself. <karlzen>, whether you are Pontus or aren't, please keep delighting and enlightening us with your analyses. |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| karlzen: Thanks for your kindness <Lawrence> and <Ben>. However, I'm afraid that I must admit not being Pontus Carlsson. I wonder what made you guess Pontus and noth someone else anyway? Actually, I'm just a young guy climbing on the ranking ladder with a lot of time left over for analysing stuff I feel is interesting. :) |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| Lawrence: <karlzen>, because of the phonetical similarity of "karlzen" and "Carlsson". |
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| Mar-22-04 |
| karlzen: Ahh, of course! I didn't think about that because that is such common a name (Karlsson/Carlsson..). |
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| Mar-23-04 |
| karlzen: <schizoidman>, 25.Qh6 is a good try, however it's not enough to win. 25...Rxe1+ 26.Kd2 Qa5+ 27.b4 Qd5+ 28.Kxe1 Qe5+ 29.Kd1 (29.Kf1 Qa1+ 30.Kg2?? Bb7+) 29...Qd5+ 30.Kc1 Qh1 31.Kb2?? c3+! (perhaps this is what you missed?) 32.Kxc3 Qf3+. <Benjamin Lau>, in the variation where white gets a pawn more and "good chances of a rook on the seventh rank", you think that it's not enough to win the game? That's highly optimistic! ;) Actually, I think white has an easy win there, three vs. two on the queenside, no real weaknesses, better bishop and rooks, his king is closer to action, etc. Additionally, 22.Qa7 is an alternative. You gave 22...Qf4+ but then white has 23.Kb1 with the threat of g5-g6 and Re7 with extreme pressure. 23...Bxf5? is very bad due to the simple 24.Rf1. |
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sac: 15.Nf5
