chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

(If you register a free account you won't see all these ads!)
Hsu Li Yang vs John Nunn
"Thrilla in Manila" (game of the day Feb-03-2013)
Chess Olympiad (1992), Manila PHI, rd 1, Jun-08
King's Indian Defense: Fianchetto. Yugoslav Variation Advance Line (E66)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Click Here to play Guess-the-Move
Given 4 times; par: 32 [what's this?]

NOTE: You are using our new chess viewer, "Olga." For more info see the Olga Quickstart Guide. You can switch back to the old viewer (pgn4web) from the pulldown menu below. If you have questions or suggestions see our Olga chessforum.

explore this opening
find similar games 1,582 more games of Nunn
sac: 22...Nxg3 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: There are many PGN viewers available. See the menu below.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  steinitzfan: I saw the queen sac but after it is declined and Black takes the rook on e1 I think it's effectively over. Had it been me I think I would have pulled the queen back to h4 at the first opportunity to avoid complications. Odd game for a Sunday though.
Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  lost in space: Here my answer from Jul-25-08

<First I made a mistake by analysing on my chessboard a postion with the white ♖ on f1 and nothing worked out, neither 22... Nxg3 nor 22...Qg5. But with the white ♖ on e1 everything is different:

22... Nxg3 23 Kxg3 Qh4+!
A: 24. Kxh4 f4 25. Kg5 (25. Rg1 Bf6#) Rff8 26. Rg1 h6+ 27. Kxg6 Be8#

B: Kh2 Qxe1 (the difference!) and this position can be won

I found no smashing solution for 22...Qg5 23. g4 Nf4 . Better for Black, but no solution for a puzzle>

In other words: I was aware of the position and the solution. No blossoms for me today.

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <Abdel Irada: <they couldn't come up with anything catchy that rhymes with Quezon>

Le Raison in Quezon?

(I know. It doesn't *quite* rhyme.)>

Yeah, that's the only problem with it... Sure.

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <27.Rxf3> survives longer than 27.Bxf3 but it doesn't change the result

27.Rxf3 Rxf3 28.Bxf3 Rf8 29.Bd2 Qf2+ 30.Bg2 Nxc4 31.Qxc4 Qxd2 32.Nc3 Rf2 33.Qe4 Qxb2 34.Nd1 Rxg2+ 35.Qxg2 Qxg2+ 36.Kxg2 Bxa4

And White has been carved up like a Thanksgiving Turkey, leaving him 2 Knights + 2 pawns vs 2 Bishops + 7 pawns


click for larger view

Please pass the gravy

*****

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: I looked at the position and saw the solution immediately. It is hard to say whether I remembered the position verbatim or recognized the decoy theme.

At least, not all is downhill :)

Oct-30-16  devere: <agb2002: Full material. The weak white castle and the defenseless rook on e1 suggest 22... Nxg3 23.Kxg3 (else drop a pawn) 23... Qh4+ 24.Kxh4 (24.Kh2 Qxe1 - + [R+P vs N]) 24... f4 25.Kg5 (due to 25... Bf6#) 25... Bf8 and mate in two (26.Nf1 Kg7 27.Bxf4 Be7#).>


click for larger view

It seems that the only checkmate in three is 25...R(f)f8, followed by 26...h6. 25...Bf8 is a good try, but mate can be delayed for a move by 26.Nb4 Kg7 27.Nc6

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: If 27. Re3, then 27...f2!, threatening mate.
Oct-30-16  Sihlous: 24.Kxh4 h6+ 25. Kxg6 Rf5!
Oct-30-16  NBZ: <devere> 25. ... Rf8 26. Nb4 (let's say) h6+ 27. Kxg6 and there is no mate yet.

Another idea I had (in the diagram you posted) was 25. ...h6+ 26. Kxg6 Rf5! threatening Rg5#. The key idea is 27. exf5 Be8#. But sadly 27. h4! delays mate by 1 move: 27. ... Rcf8 and now there is no defence to 28. ... Be8#.

I am very interested to see if anyone has found a mate-in-three (i.e. mate on the 28th move).

Oct-30-16  NBZ: Went back and read the older comments and realized that <YouRang> found the exact same line (with Rf5 and Rcf8) 8 years ago!
Oct-30-16  devere: <NBZ: <devere> 25. ... Rf8 26. Nb4 (let's say) h6+ 27. Kxg6 and there is no mate yet.>

25...R(f)f8 26.Nb4 h6+ 27.Kxg6 Be8#


click for larger view

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: After 22.Rc3


click for larger view

Komodo-10.1-64bit:

<-2.76/40 22...Nxg3 23.exf5> Nxf5 24.Ne4 Nd4 25.Qd1 Qf8 26.Kh1 Ra8 27.Be3 Rf5 28.Ng3 Nxf3 29.Nxf5 Nxe1 30.Nxg7 Nxg2 31.Kxg2 Qxg7 32.Qd2 Bxa4 33.Bh6 Qe7 34.Bg5 Qc7 35.Nc1 Rf8 36.b3 Bd7 37.Rg3 b5 38.Qa2 Qb6 39.Bd2 Nb7 40.Bh6 Rf7 41.Kh2 a5 42.Qg2 Kh8 43.Rf3 Bf5 44.Qa2 bxc4 45.bxc4 Kg8 46.Ne2 Nd8 47.Bg5

Oct-30-16  mel gibson: An interesting game & my computer agrees with the solution however - I didn't see it.
Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Edgar S. Dunn in Economic and Social Development (1971) writes words that could also apply to chess and solving difficult problems:

p.156-157 A statement by Nelson et al. (1967, pp. 173-174) illustrates the haphazard and inefficient way that social learning takes place in the formulation and initiation of public policy...

<Under such circumstances the most fruitful way to proceed is sequentially and experimentally>; neither by doing nothing because knowledge is less than perfect nor leaping farther than necessary in a pre-judged direction... The knowledge myth... seriously impedes the development of public policy. The channeling of large sums of money into programs predetermined on the basis of sketchy information narrows the range of alternatives that can be tried, and thus reduces the range of policy instruments that have to be tested. Further, it deters useful experimentation... It places a high premium on actions likely to yield simple-minded qualitative indexes of immediate success... <Conditions of great uncertainty call for imaginative and flexible probings, not vacillation between inaction and commitment>.

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I saw the Q sac and it should lead to a forced mate: Black has to play Kg7 at one stage...There is one difficult variation if White first plays 23. exf5 when (if Black doesn't just play Nxf5) it is not so easy to see a forced mate for Black. I would say that the combination was part intuition and part calculation. White's pieces have less room to move than White's.
Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: In fact if he intervenes with 23. exf5 the Q sac doesn't now work so as I said to my son Black can take back with the N and then head for d5 with a strong position.

It is a beautiful sacrifice. I saw it and then the follow up f5 as well as the method of Bf8 and Kg7 which forces mate although there are probably other ways. After Nxg3 though White is pretty bad....

Insane because of the risk of so much material invested by Black! I nice idea and typical of Nunn's intuitive and combinative style, although he probably had it pretty well calculated out before he sacrificed the Q for sure!!

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: My method if the Q was accepted was if 25. Kxh4 f5 26. Kg5 Bf8 and then whatever happens Black can play Kg7 which forces mate but obviously there are other ways.
Oct-30-16  izimbra: <lost in space: Here my answer from Jul-25-08

<First I made a mistake by analysing on my chessboard a postion with the white ♖ on f1 and nothing worked out, neither 22... Nxg3 nor 22...Qg5. But with the white ♖ on e1 everything is different:

22... Nxg3 23 Kxg3 Qh4+!
A: 24. Kxh4 f4 25. Kg5 (25. Rg1 Bf6#) Rff8 26. Rg1 h6+ 27. Kxg6 Be8#

B: Kh2 Qxe1 (the difference!) and this position can be won

I found no smashing solution for 22...Qg5 23. g4 Nf4 . Better for Black, but no solution for a puzzle>

In other words: I was aware of the position and the solution. No blossoms for me today.>

Setting up the positiong with the White rook on f1 instead of e1 is interesting to play out with Stockfish. White gets slowly, completely, crushed after 22...Qg5 in that position. It takes a long time, but the computer sees it immediately. White's position is ruined by the pawn on f3...it it was still on f2, then White is fine...e.g. 22...f4 23. g4... It's humbling to see how Stockfish knows instantly that the Rf1 alteration is decisively won for black while the f2 alteration is an even game.

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <lost in space><izimbra> I once tried to work out an Alekhine combination for more than an hour only to find I had set the position up wrongly. It happens to me all the time!

Here I solved this fairly quickly once I saw the sac and f4...


click for larger view

22. Rc3 Nxg3 23. Kxg3 Qh4+ !!


click for larger view

24. Kxh4 f4 !! 25. Kg5 Bf8 26. Nf1 Kg7


click for larger view

27. Bxf4 Be7#
♗lack mates 0-1


click for larger view

Oct-30-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Further quotes from Technology Economic Growth and Public Policy (Nelson, Peck, Kalacheck, 1967):

p.27 <The problem with trying to achieve major advances in large and complex systems - products with a large number of tightly interdependent components - is that to change any one item causes reverberations throughout the system.> Even small changes in performance in just one or two dimensions may require a vast amount of redesign. For smaller or less complex systems involving fewer or less interdependent components, one aspect of design can be changed with relatively little overall redesign.

p.90 The stock of embryonic ideas for new or improved products and processes is very large. At any time many ideas are being worked on in a limited way with the objective of making their concepts more explicit, testing their technical feasibility, and assessing their value and cost. This kind of exploratory work often can proceed with a moderate investment.

p.92 <In most far-reaching efforts the initial uncertainties may be extremely great, and the probing for a workable design concept may be the only practicable key to their resolution.>

p.176 [footnote] More to the point, <it is agreed that limitations on the information available to decision makers generally means that the preferred policy strategy is an incremental one>. Exploratory, serial, and reconstructive policy action is the heart of disjointed incrementalism and also of sequential experimentalism.

p.177 For each of the areas it appears possible to design an experimental program which, without massive commitment of resources, can probe the problem and feed back information that will help improve judgment regarding whether any kind of program at all is likely to have net payoff, and if so the kind and scope of the program. While formal evaluation procedures cannot substitute for judgment, careful planning of data collection and analysis can help to make judgment somewhat less capricious.

p.177 <there is little to be lost and much to be gained from an experimental probe of the possibilities.>

Oct-31-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <YouRang....I didn't calculate it all the way to mate, but mate can't be far after 25.Kg5 (avoid ...Bf6#) h6+ 26.Kxg6 Rcf8, threatening Rg7+....>

Believe Nunn, when commenting on the finish, (all he published in his games collection) noted in one of the lines he gave, something to the effect that '(his) spoilsport computer found a mate one move faster than that which he had analysed, and he further stated that he could understand why Alekhine sometimes 'improved' on the finishes of his games!

Oct-31-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: <devere: <agb2002:> ...

It seems that the only checkmate in three is 25...R(f)f8, followed by 26...h6. 25...Bf8 is a good try, but mate can be delayed for a move by 26.Nb4 Kg7 27.Nc6>

Good point. It was difficult to imagine that the farthest piece on the board could delay mate!

Oct-31-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: After 22...Nxg3!! 23. Kxg3 Qh4+! 24. Kxh4 f4 25. Kg5 Rf8! 26. Nb4 (diagram below) or any other White move,


click for larger view

it's mate-in-two with 26...h6+ 27. Kxg6 Be8#.

Oct-31-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <RandomVisitor> Nice posting(s), Good Stuff
Nov-02-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <agb2002: <devere: <agb2002:> ... It seems that the only checkmate in three is 25...R(f)f8, followed by 26...h6. 25...Bf8 is a good try, but mate can be delayed for a move by 26.Nb4 Kg7 27.Nc6>

Good point. It was difficult to imagine that the farthest piece on the board could delay mate!>

I didn't see the N could go to c6 but funnily enough I had a strange feeling that black was knackered after f4 !

If it was a problem then fair enough, more checking....

I saw when Kasparov sacrificed his Q against Karpov in I think the 1990 match he missed the quickest mate....and of course Alekhine used to "rewrite" his games (esp. blindfold or simuls) so that he made the quickest and most beautiful wins!

I think the point is to find the ideas. The rest is just details and concentration.

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 5)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, totally anonymous, and 100% free--plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.
  3. No personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No posting personal information of members.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform an administrator.


NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, you might try the Kibitzer's Café.
Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
<This page contains Editor Notes. Click here to read them.>
This game is type: CLASSICAL (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections [what is this?]
Knight Sac! Queen Sac!
from Hot Logic's favorite games by Hot Logic
woodenbishop's favorite games #6
by woodenbishop
Insane Games [GotD & PotD]
by FairyPromotion
Crazy Combinations!
by hedgeh0g
'Thrilla in Manila' fought in Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philip
from KID Warlords Roast Fredthebear by fredthebear
Dr. Nunn's killer decoys: ... Nxg3!! and ... Qh4+!!
from KID rules by notyetagm
22...? (Sunday, October 30)
from Puzzle of the Day 2016 by Phony Benoni
22...? (October 30, 2016)
from Sunday Puzzles, 2011-2017 by Phony Benoni
Black decoys blow it open.
from Grampmaster's Favorite Combo's by Grampmaster
22...Nxg3!! sets up 23...Qh4+!! to mate or win the Rook
from Demolition of Pawn Structure: Sac on g6 ( g3) by patzer2
'Thrilla in Manila' fought in Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philip
from Fredthebear's Diagonals Diagonals II by fredthebear
The Q can't be taken. Nunn style attack
from Great tactics examples by arsen387
'Thrilla in Manila' fought in Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philip
from 1990s Blatant Lies, Scandals & Coverups of 1990s by fredthebear
Kings Indian Defence, Fianchetto Variation
by DHW
Qh4+
from My Favorite Games by swarmoflocusts
'Thrilla in Manila' fought in Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philip
from QThee Queen is Meaner Volume Three!?! by fredthebear
Black decoys blow it open.
from Grampmaster's Favorite Combo's by neeraj sah
22...? (July 25, 2008)
from Friday Puzzles, 2004-2010 by Phony Benoni
jepflast's combination studies
by jepflast
King gonna crossin the 5th
from 87c_ Hunting Season - king marches OTB one way o by whiteshark
plus 37 more collections (not shown)


home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2017, Chessgames Services LLC