< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Aug-04-17|| ||sensex: Game 73 from the book Python Strategy Tigran Petrosian|
|Aug-04-17|| ||sushijunkie: This felt like a Monday|
|Aug-04-17|| ||yadasampati: <al wazir> Apparently you deleted your first remark to which i reacted and then replaced it with the (better) 38...Nf4+ response. But after 40. Kg3 Rg1+ is not possible. You probably meant Rg8+. After 41. Kf2 Rh2+ 42. Ke1 Rxg1 43. Qxg1 i would play Rxa2 and black seems much better|
|Aug-04-17|| ||patzer2: Thirteen years after my last post on this Friday's (32...?) position, 34...Rg8! is still stronger than 34...Qxh2+!?|
However, the computer programs are much stronger and the assessment in favor of 34...Rg8! -+ is very much stronger:
[Stockfish 8 64 @ 35 depth:-2.18] 34...Rg8! 35.Qe2 Rfg6 36.Qd2 Bh3 37.Re2 Qh4 38.Rf1 Rh6 39.Bxh3 Nxh3 40.Re4 Nf4 41.Rxf4 Qxf4 42.Qxf4 exf4 43.Ne4 Rhg6 44.Rd1 Kg7 45.Rd2 Kh6 46.h3 a6 47.Kh2 b5 48.a4 bxa4 49.bxa4 Rb8 50.Rg2 Rb4 51.Rxg6+ Kxg6 52.Nxd6 Rxa4 53.Kg2 Kf6 54.Ne4+ Ke5 55.d6 Rxc4 -+
click for larger view
Evaluation of the final position of this analysis with Stockfish 8 is -11.25 @ 38 depth.
|Aug-04-17|| ||yadasampati: <al wazir> Haha, and i posted my second comment before seeing your second comment :-) No problem.|
|Aug-04-17|| ||al wazir: <yadasampati: You probably meant Rg8+.> Yes. I didn't get it right even on the third try.|
But I still think that line is better than the one played.
|Aug-04-17|| ||ChessHigherCat: <dfcx: Stockfish does not like the game line. |
34...Rg8 35.Ne2 Bg4 36.f4 exf4 37.Nxf4 Rgf8 38.Qb2 Nf3 39.Bxf3 Qxf4 40.Qxf6+ Rxf6 41.Re8+ Rf8 42.Rxf8+ Qxf8 43.Bxg4 (-2.56, depth 21)>
I saw that 34...Rg8 was a strong candidate but "Black to play and gain a significant advantage in 10 moves" is not my idea of a reasonable puzzle (although it's instructive, of course)
|Aug-04-17|| ||newzild: Missed it - I went for the game line of 34...Qxh2+.|
As pointed out by several posters, 34...Rg8 is best.
|Aug-04-17|| ||drollere: Qxh2 lept to view immediately. Rh6+ had to be blocked, just to give the king an escape route. From there the variations got harder to follow. Why not 36. ... Bxh3?|
|Aug-04-17|| ||cocker: 37Kg2 would have limited White's deficit to a pawn.|
|Aug-04-17|| ||gofer: Surely not a queen sac on a Friday?!
<34 ... Qxh2+>
<35 Kxh2 Rh6+>
At this point white has to start to jetison minor pieces
to survive! But the knight can't be the first!
36 Nh5 Rxh5+
37 Kg3 Rg8 (37 Bh3 Nxh3 -+)
38 f4 Nh3+ (38 Q/R anywhere Ne4# or 38 Bh3 Nxh3+ 39 Kh2 Nxf2#)
39 Kf3 Bg4+! (39 Ke4 Nxf2#)
40 Kg3 Be2+
41 Kh2 Nxf2+ -+
<36 Bh3 Nxh3!>
37 Nf5 Bxf5
38 Qf1 Nf4+
39 Kg3 Rg8+
40 Kf2 Nh3+ -+
<37 Kg2 Nxf2>
<38 Kxf2 ...>
click for larger view
White has survived, but is a pawn down at the very least
black can trade off the minor pieces to a winning endgame.
So I was right and wrong. The queen sac was played, but was
weaker than <34 ... Rg8>. Ho Hum... ...try again tomorrow...
|Aug-04-17|| ||malt: the position of the cramped King, suggests
34...Q:h2+ 35.K:h2 Rh6+ 36.Bh3 N:h3 37.Nf5
(37.Qf1 Nf4+ 38.Qh3 R:h3# ) 37...B:f5 38.Qf1 Nf4+ 39.Kg3 Rg8+ 40.Kf2
|Aug-04-17|| ||Marmot PFL: Have seen this game in at least two anthologies so at least I knew the first few moves. When Petrosian sacs a queen you know it's sound and might as well resign.|
|Aug-04-17|| ||stacase: <sushijunkie: This felt like a Monday>|
I had that thought too.
|Aug-04-17|| ||stst: Quick Take:
36.Bh3 NxB forks Q,R
37.Q moves NxR dis+
Black in control
|Aug-04-17|| ||takchess: Perhaps I see pieces of this one.... A critical moment, The Iron Tiger seems ready to pounce with black's ability to
flood with attacking moves and white's pieces are uncoordinated as all moves to the H file to block a check are unsupported by others.
>The big question to me is does 34...Qxh2+ 35. Kxh2 Bh3 carry the day or are there some intermesso moves to prepare the attack further
such as Rg8 perhaps preparing an eventual Nf2 mate or a Rf8, Rf4, Nh6,Bh6,e4?
34...Qxh2+ 35. Kxh2 Bh3 36.Bxh3 Rg2(clearing g1 square)37.bd7+ kg1 Nh3+and royal fork
my final answer. 4...Qxh2+ 35. Kxh2 Bh3 36. Nxh3 then either NxQ or nf4 depending on white move.|
|Aug-04-17|| ||agb2002: Alberic O'Kelly comments this game in his book "El ajedrez superior de Tigran Petrosian".|
|Aug-04-17|| ||Strelets: I think one of the most important things about Petrosian's chess is that he was a phenomenal tactician. It doesn't seem there at first glance, but it was absolutely foundational to his play.|
|Aug-04-17|| ||Tomasmental: At first, I thought the line after Qxh2+ 35. Kxh2 Rh6+ 36. Bh3 should be continued by black with 36...Bxh3, but now I understend the deepness involving 36...Nxh3. Brilliant.|
|Aug-05-17|| ||Richard Taylor: <newzild: Missed it - I went for the game line of 34...Qxh2+.
As pointed out by several posters, 34...Rg8 is best.>|
No: Petrosian's move is the best move. Komodo finds it is completely winning in all lines. I liked Qxh2+ and thought that it was winning if the B took h3 but I didn't spend much time on it Nxh3 is best. A great combination by Petrosian.
|Aug-05-17|| ||morfishine: <Richard Taylor> I agree with you: If both win, then neither is best. Of course, one may be faster, but that doesn't make it best, since a win = 1 point on the leader board no matter how fast one finishes the game|
|Aug-06-17|| ||Richard Taylor: <morfishine> Of course the point of chess is to win. I saw another game of Petrosian's where he missed a (one move quicker win) Q sac: but for reasons of pride one might regret it. I didn't try to work this all out as I was a bit tired and these ones like the insane one take a lot of time. They are good training if you do do them though. I improved a lot of rating points in 2010 by doing these "in my head" also watching chess YouTubes and solving positions and I bothered to learn some openings a little more systematically for the first time in my life.|
It is also good fun to try to solve these but you need the time and energy!
[The other thing is that for a lot of players it is good they even find some ideas. Not always a reason to beat yourself up if you miss all the fine print. I suspect the GMs and others win often on the basis of the position looking good so some times a sacrifice is "intuitive" as against calculated. Perhaps indeed if one is in time trouble. Sometimes I sacrifice because I feel nervous of going to a complex or dubious ending or a long drawn out "positional" game...
|Aug-06-17|| ||morfishine: <Richard Taylor> I followed a strict training regime for about 2 years and improved my rating by ~200 points and felt like I was based and ready for another rating increase. The training primarily involved a certain # of puzzles per day mixed in with playing periodic games (both classical & Chess960). |
<Patriot> was a big help providing training links from his teacher IM Dan Heisman. These were very useful and can't be overstated.
But alas, it became too much, taking up too much time, so I ceased about 2 years ago. Sadly, its astonishing how quickly I gave those rating points back :(
|Aug-07-17|| ||Richard Taylor: Yes. The significant thing is that training can improve one's play. Also psychological attitude helps, in handling losses (for the next round) and in reverses during the game and also choosing openings and so on. |
But it is all very time consuming. I mostly just make things up OTB at my Club where there are a few sharp juniors but it is very small with not very many strong players...Alghough some times 2 FMs drop in and currently our countries strongest rated active player is playing which is good of him as he doesn't get much opposition. I drew with him at the Zonal but he has beaten me since. I am not in the 2300+ league...not even near 2000 in fact. Struggling at my age.....
|Oct-30-17|| ||Saniyat24: Very complex and fascinating game....!|
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