< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Nov-28-10|| ||Once: Now 3½ hours into the analysis. Still at number one is onur87's pick of 28. Rxa6 with +2.46.|
In second place is 28. Ra5 with +2.25.
And Petrosian's 28. Qxa6 is now in third place with +2.10.
And following on closely is 28. Qa3 with +2.09.
|Nov-28-10|| ||roberto146: What happens with the obvious 28 Qd2?|
|Nov-28-10|| ||benveniste: Once one realizes that the pawn at a6 is the key to the position, I think the puzzle is solved. The queen sac is the most spectacular way to go about the attack, but ♖xa6 and ♖a5 both seem to be alternate solutions.|
OTB, I think I would have tried ♖a5, bwak-bwak!
|Nov-28-10|| ||therealbenjinathan: <Now 3½ hours into the analysis. Still at number one is onur87's pick of 28. Rxa6 with +2.46.>|
I am afraid this is kind of a dud as a puzzle. I got Rxa6 to win the pawn and create a passer and I should never get a Sunday puzzle.
The instructions for the puzzle as in the text should be "white to move and find a spectacular alternative to Rxa6".
|Nov-28-10|| ||BOSTER: This is not often when <CG> represents the diagram with struggle in the Queen's side. Because the mobility of the Black Queen is limited , and White have two open files "a" and "c" it easy to see that White can temporarily sacr. the Queen,playing 28.Qxa6 and after Rxa6 29.Bxa6 Black Queen has only one square to retreat (Qc8-Ne7+) Qa8 30.Bxc8 Qxa1 31.Rxa1 Bxc8 32.Ne7+ and White is winnning.
I don't know why,but my opinion,that the TIME with high speed increases the distance between what is supposed to be PUZZLE and games,represented by <CG> as Daiy Puzzle.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||agb2002: The material is even.
Black threatens ... f4.
The pawn on a6 is hanging, so 28.Rxa6 Rxa6 (28... f4 29.Rxa8) 29.Qxa6 Bxc6 (29... Qxa6 30.Bxa6 f4 31.Bxc8 Bxc6 (31... Bxc8 32.Ne7+) 32.Be6+ Kh8 33.dxc6 fxe3 34.c7) 32.dxc6 Qxb4 33.Qc4+ Qxc4 34.Bxc4+ Kh8 35.Be6
A) 35... f4 36.gxf4 exf4 37.Bxf4 Rxf4 38.Bxc8 Rxe4 39.Bd7 and 40.c7 + -.
B) 35... Ne7 36.c7 Nc8 37.Bg5 followed by 38.Bd8 (37... Bf6 38.Bxf6 Rxf6 39.Bxc8 + -).
C) 35... Re8 (or 35... Bf6) 36.exf5 gxf5 37.Bxf5 + -.
D) 35... fxe4 36.Rb1 Re8 37.Bd7 Rf8 38.Rb8 Ne7 39.Rxf8+ Kxf8 40.c7 + -.
|Nov-28-10|| ||Once: Nearly seven hours in, and Petrosian's move slips back to fourth place. The runners and riders are:|
28. Rxa6 +2.54
28. Qa3 +2.27
28. Ra5 +2.20
28. Qxa6 +2.04
28. Ra2 +1.92
|Nov-28-10|| ||muralman: Got the moves to the end. Sunday puzzles are my favorite. It pushes me into thinking inventively.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||Dr. Pipit Wagtail: MIssed it completely. Sunny Fields Retirement home here I come.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||SufferingBruin: Two years away from the grave (what was his health in this match, I wonder?) Tigran Petrosian, known throughout the land for his conservative, defensive play, looked over the battlefield and with a number of reasonable moves to make, chose Qxa6. |
He did not have someone whisper in his ear 'white to play and win'. He just flat out saw this. That stuns me.
Yes, I would have played Rxa6 OTB and according to Fritz (thank you, <Once>!) I would probably not be alone.
|Nov-28-10|| ||Old Wolf: Once - which move is the practical choice to play in a game though?|
Qxa6 is pretty easy to calculate out (for a GM) , the other lines are less forcing.
|Nov-28-10|| ||Beandip: Houdini 1.03 actually prefers 28.Qxa6 at depth 20: +2.91 versus +2.54 for Rxa6. Maybe Petrosian saw something even Fritz can't see after seven hours!|
|Nov-28-10|| ||BOSTER: <Beandip> <Maybe something even Fritz can not see after seven hours!>.
The psychological effect from Queen sacr. is so great,that no one computer can count this.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||AGOJ: Hello <Once>, we should ask Psakhis how he felt when Petrossian played 28.Qxa6. The demoralizing/suprise effect might have added to the evaluation of the move.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||wals: Rybka 4 x 64
depth: 16 : 8 min :
1. (2.70): 28.Qxa6 Rxa6 29.Bxa6 Qa8 30.Bxc8 Qxa1 31.Rxa1 Bxc8 32.b5 f4 33.Bd2 fxg3 34.fxg3 Bxh3 35.b6 Bc8 36.Ra7 Bf6 37.b7 Bxb7 38.Rxb7 Rf7 39.Rb6 Bg7 40.Bb4 Rf3 41.Bxd6 Rxg3+ 42.Kf2 Rg5 43.Rb8+
2. (2.17): 28.Rxa6 f4 29.Rxa8 Qxa8 30.gxf4 exf4 31.Bd4 Qb7 32.b5 Bxd4 33.Nxd4 Rf7 34.Qc3 Qb6 35.Ne6 Qb8 36.Ng5 Rf8 37.Qc7 Nb6 38.Ne6 Qxc7 39.Rxc7 Rf7 40.Rb7 Nc8 41.Ng5 Re7
|Nov-28-10|| ||Patriot: 28.Rxa6 looks good enough for me. Simple is usually better.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||gars: Too subtle for me. I think that if I study a lot I'll be able to understand Petrosian's games fifty years from now! Problem is I am sixty-three ...|
|Nov-28-10|| ||patzer2: For today's difficult Sunday puzzle, Petrosian's 28. Qxa6!! initiates a deep combination to win the exchange and the game by a deflection to remove the guard after 28. Qxa6!! Rxa6 29. Bxa6 Bxc6 30. Bxb7 Bxb7 31. Rc7 Rf7 32. Rac1 Ba6 33. b5! .|
However, the simple 28. Rxa6! winning a pawn with decisive advantage is easier and may stronger.
|Nov-28-10|| ||DarthStapler: I didn't get it, I picked Rxa6 instead, but what happens if black plays 29...Qa8 30. Bxc8 Qxa1 31. Rxa1 Bxc8? Doesn't that avoid losing the exchange?|
|Nov-28-10|| ||gars: This is game number 68, very well analysed, in David Keene's "Petrosian vs the Elite".|
|Nov-28-10|| ||BOSTER: <wals> <Rybka4
|Nov-28-10|| ||chrisowen: 13.a5 message sends a clear, across warning his bows. Majestic Petro looks for g3 on the fire. Tick sense 6.e2 all black worry rolls hedgehog xa6 Tigran knows when yet to press. Acanthopterygians pine queen bait it suckz.|
|Nov-28-10|| ||chrisowen: Anyone's recommend a line salvation it is in hand samish squido or time unorthodox! Raise in kingside a glass hailed. This is how good sting bottle the english?|
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 h6 4. g3 g5 5. d4 d6 6. d5 Nce7 7. Bg2 Bg7 8. O-O f5
|Nov-29-10|| ||patzer2: <DarthStapler: I didn't get it, I picked Rxa6 instead, but what happens if black plays 29...Qa8 30. Bxc8 Qxa1 31. Rxa1 Bxc8? Doesn't that avoid losing the exchange?> Well it avoids the loss of the exchange, but White's passed pawn becomes even stronger.|
After 28. Qxa6!! Rxa6 29. Bxa6 Qa8 30. Bxc8 Qxa1 31. Rxa1 Bxc8, White wins going away after either 32. b5 or 32. Ra7 .
One possibility played out with Fritz went 32. Ra7! fxe4 33. h4 Bf6 34. b5 Rf7 35. Ra8 Rf8 36. Bg5! when the dual threat of the passed pawn and the Knight Fork are decisive.
Good to see <wals> Rybka4 assesses 28. Qxa6!! as slightly stronger than 28. Rxa6 , even if it is quite a bit more complicated.
P.S.: Since 28. Qxa6!! involves a Queen sham sacrifice, as well as the passed pawn, discovered attack, Knight Fork and deflection (removing the guard) tactics, I've decided to put it in my combined operations collection.
|Jun-05-15|| ||Al2009: Although this was a very beautiful game, by Petrosian, it is the kind of game persuading me that Petrosian was many times missing many good chances, even when he was much better than his opponent. (Do you remember Petrosian - Fischer? Portoroz 1959, as commented by Bobby Fischer, in "My 60 memorable games"? Petrosian was clearly better, but wasting at least 3-4 winning moves)|
In this game why 19. Qd3?
After 19. Nc6!, Qc7 (or Qb7) and now
20. Nd5! Nbxd5 (20...Qxc6?? 21. Ne7+) 21. cxd5 and White is clearly winning
I'm sure that Tal, Fischer, Kasparov, etc. would have played 19. Nc6! followed by 20. Nd5!
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