< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-16-05|| ||awfulhangover: I solved it, but it took a few minutes. Bad.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||zb2cr: So, getting the exchange up for a Pawn counts as a win? That's the situation when the combination wraps up after move 26. I saw this, but figured that wasn't enough to count as a winning advantage. Kept looking for a long while for something better and couldn't find anything.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||zabbura2002: I've got only until 25. .. Rxa2 and I was not confident with the answer at first.. I thought that it has to do with Bishop at c8 but I couldn't get a good place for it to go... so the other possibility is bishop on the dark square..|
|Jun-16-05|| ||masterwojtek: <DP12> You have a mouth full of (you know what). |
I could help you with it, in person, in about 2 minutes.
|Jun-16-05|| ||YouRang: Groan - Missed it again! My just compensation for bragging about how easy the Monday puzzle was.|
Next week I will be more humble.
|Jun-16-05|| ||kevin86: An intermezzo fork employed by a Hungarian-How continental!|
White looked smart in taking advantage of a pin-but fell victim to a pitfall 23... c3!.
|Jun-16-05|| ||DanRoss53: <patzer2> & <aginis>: I couldn't agree more; 20... a8!! set the trap perfectly. Polgar was hoping for 21. xb4? all along.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||patzer2: <DanRoss53> <Polgar was hoping for 21. Rxb4? all along.> Probably so! However, the neat defensive resource pointed out by <aginis> with 23.Ra3! Bc3 24. Qxc3 axb4 25. Qxb4 would have given White two pawns for the exchange and would have made the win very difficult for Black and provided good drawing chances for White.|
Here is one possibility played out move-by-move at 18 to 23 depth with Fritz 8, which gets it down to a Rook versus Knight ending:
23. Ra3! Bc3 24. Qxc3 axb4 25. Qxb4 Rxa3 26. Qxa3 Qc7 27. Bc4 Bd7 28. h3 Qb6 29. Qa1 Bb5 30. Bxb5 Qxb5 31. Qf6 Qb6 32. Kh2 Rb8 33. h4 Qd8 34. Qxd8+ Rxd8 35. Nf1 Rb8 36. Nd2 Kf8 37. Kg3 Ke7 38. Kf4 Rc8 39. b4 Rb8 40. Nc4 Rxb4 41. Na5 Rb1 42. Nc6+ Kf6 43. g3 Rg1 44. Kg4 h5+ 45. Kf4 Ra1 46.
Nd4 Ke7 47. Nc6+ Kf8 48. Kg5 Ke8 49. Kf4 Rd1 50. Kg5 Rd3 51. Kf4 f6 52. g4 hxg4 53. Kxg4 Rd2 54. Kg3 f5 55. Na7 Rd1 56. Kf4 fxe4 57. fxe4 Rf1+ 58. Kg5 Rg1+ 59. Kf4 Ra1 60. Nc6 Re1 61. Na7 Rc1 62. Nc6 Rc4 63. Na5 Ra4 64. Nc6 Kf7 65. Nd8+ Kf6 66. Nc6 Ra1 67. Kf3 Rg1 68. Kf4 Re1 69. Kf3 g5 70. hxg5+ Kxg5 71. Na5 Kf6 72. Kf4 Rf1+ 73. Ke3 Rd1 74. Nc4 Ke7 75. Na5 Ra1 76. Nc4 Rh1 77. Kd4 Kd7 78. Na5 Kc7 79. Nc6 Rh4 80. Na7 Rh8 81. Nc6 Kd7 82. Kc4 Rh5 83. Kd4 Kc7 84. Na7 Rh4
85. Nb5+ Kd7 86. Na7 Ke8 87. Nc8 Rh6 88. Na7 Kf7 89. Nc8 Kf8 90. Nb6 Ke7 91. Nc8+ Kd7 92. Na7 Kc7 93. Nc6 Rh2 94. Kc3 Rh4 95. Kd4 Kb6 96. Ne7 Rh1 97. Nc8+ Kc7 98. Na7 Rd1+ 99. Kc4 Ra1 100. Nb5+ Kd7 101. Nd4 Ra4+ 102. Kd3 Ra3+ 103. Kd2 Rh3 104. Ke2 Kd8 105. Nc6+ Kc7 106. Kd2 Kb6 107. e5 Kc5 108. exd6 Kxd6 109. Nb4 Kc5 110. Nd3+ Kd4 111. Nf2 Rh2 112. Ke2 Rh5 113. d6 Rh6 114. d7 Rd6 115. Nh3 Rxd7 116. Ng1 Re7+ 117. Kd2 Rf7 118. Ne2+ Kc4 119. Ke3 Re7+ 120. Kf3 Re8 121. Ng3 Kd5 122. Ne2 Re5 123. Nf4+ Kc4 124. Ne2 and it looks like a draw, as at 23 depth Fritz 8 has not yet found a forced win in the resulting Rook and Knight endgame.
|Jun-16-05|| ||mymt: hope susan calls in & gives us a bit of back ground to this game.It would be interesting to hear what she thinks of 23.Ra3! & 34.Nf5?! [ which I think is quite a tricky idea ]|
|Jun-16-05|| ||notyetagm: <prinsallan: I must say I missed this one... Hopefully I learned something from this puzzle as many claims was to simple ^^>|
Many people lie, too. "It was sooo easy" they say, but they would miss it completely if the clock were running in a real game and nobody was there to tell them there was a winning move in the position.
|Jun-16-05|| ||notyetagm: 23 ... c3!, an excellent move winning the exchange for nothing. The tactical theme of this move is <decoy so that a capture can be made with tempo>. After the bishop fork 23 ... c3!, White's only good move is to play 24 xc3. But now that the White queen has been <decoyed> onto the c3-square, the <discovered attack> 24 ... axb4 comes with the dual threats of 25 ... xa2 <and> 25 ... bxc3. Without the White queen on c3 (i.e., without the decoy), the discovered attack ... axb4 creates only the single threat of ... xa2, to which White has the adequate response xa8.|
For a great example of this theme, <decoy so that a capture comes with tempo>, check out Rossetto vs J Sherwin, 1958 and the move 45 ... f3+!, a wicked <zwischenzug>. After 46 xf3, Black is able take the b3-bishop <with check> (46 ... xb3+) and <then> capture the d6-bishop as well (47 ... exd6). The decoy 45 ... f3+! lets Black capture both of the White bishops, not just one of them.
|Jun-16-05|| ||notyetagm: 4/4 this week. Usually I get stumped on Thursday or Wednesday but not this week so far.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||aginis: <zb2cr> i think that the position is winning not only because of the material gain but also because knights are weaker in the endgame particularly against long range pieces and the positional strength of polgar's R&Q. however i did suggest 34.Nf5 as a possible drawing defense in my earlier posts.|
perhaps a better defense for white was 22.Bxh6 Nxe4 (22...Nxd5? 23.Bxg7 Nxb4 24.Bc3 Nc6 25.Bb5 and the a pawn falls) 23.Nxe4 Bxa1 24.Ra4 Bg7 25.Bb5
A.25...Bd7 26.Bxg7 Kxg7 27. Qc3+ K? 28.Bxd7 Qxd7 29.Nf6
B.25...Re7 26.BxB KxB 27.Qc3+ Kh6 (27...Kh7 28.Nf6+ Kh6 29.Rh4+ Kg5 30.f4+ Kf5 31.Bd3+ Re4 32.Bxd4# or 27...Kg8 28.Nf6+ Kf8 29.Rh4 ) 28.Nxd6 any 29.Rh4+ Kg5 30.f4+ Kxh4 31.Qg3+ Kh5 32.Qg5#
C.25...Re5 26.f4 Re7 27.Qc3+ Kh6 28.Nf6 (the threat is 29.g4 any 30.g5+ Kg7 31.Ne8++ any Qg7# to prevent this black must sacrafice material.)
D.25...Rf8 26.Bf4 and d6 falls because
26...Be5? 27.Bxe5 dxe5 28.Qh6 f6 29.Qxg6+ Kh8 30.Nd6 f5 31.Qh6+ Kg8 32.Rh4
i think white maintains equal material and even a strong position. so the big mistake was not 21.Rxb4 but 23.Ra2
|Jun-16-05|| ||aginis: <patzer2> i don't suppose you could have fritz chug through 34.Nf5. 80 moves will not be necessary but some idea of where the game would go might be interesting.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||InspiredByMorphy: <aginis> I would guess that 34.Nf5 Qg1+ 35.Kg3 gxf5 36.Qg5+ draws. Of course Im no Fritz...|
|Jun-16-05|| ||aginis: <InspiredByMorphy> yes but i don't think black will play gxf5. take a look at my earlier post.(the second one)|
|Jun-16-05|| ||Shams: <aginis> I think 34.Nf5 Qc1! forcing the queens off wins: 35.Qxc1 Rxc1 36.Nxd6 Rc3 and black will have to sac the knight for the b-pawn.|
|Jun-16-05|| ||aginis: <shams> that is why i recommend Ne7+ instead of Nxd6. in your line 36.Ne7+ Kg7 37.Nc6 Rb1 38.Nxb4 Rxb3 39.Nc6 |
see Lipschutz vs Bird, 1889
for a similar ending.
|Jun-16-05|| ||Shams: <aginis> I missed that -- you are right, Ne7 is a much better try. white should have played Nf5. Nice find.|
|Jun-17-05|| ||patzer2: <aginis> Looks like 34. Nf5!? is in the nice try but no cigar category. It's probably White's best chance to complicate in the position, but after 34. Nf5!? h4! 35. Nxh4 (forced as other moves lead to mate) 35...Qc1! 36. Qxc1 Rxc1 Black is winning easilyy (-3.41 @ 18 depth per Fritz 8).|
|Jun-17-05|| ||abject: Aginis, I agree Black has not played the best moves though 17.. She is in fact on the side of disadvantage…even with b4 imho. And even though the best moves were played from 17 to 20 … that the rook exchange was BADDDDDDD!! White was winning up to this point. Aginis – this is the only point I disagree with your analysis. |
21. Bb5 keeps white winning. This forces the bishop exchange and the Qf4! Keeps white with the initiative.
21. Rxb4 was blind greed, nothing more I think. We humans do it all the time – justifying material gain through blinded mental processes!!:-) I know I do. I do not think she had moves 17 to 25 already looked at,and covered this line. she probably went wow, what a silly-butt for giving up the advantage with the exchange. I bet she took a lot of time to ponder once the exchange was done and the clock hit.
Again, look at the line with Bb5 attacking the rook.... White is winning
|Jun-17-05|| ||aginis: ok this is just an idea but how about
21.Bb5 Bd7 22.Bxd7 Qxd7 23.Qf4? Nxe5 24.dxe5 Qxa4!! 25.bxa4 Bxa1 26.Ne4 b3 and the b pawn queens. for example:
27.Qc1 b2 28.Qb1 Re5 29.Bf4 Rc8 30.h3 f5
or 27.Bf6 b2 28.Bxb2 Bxb2 29.g4 Rac8 30.Kg2 Rc2+ 31.Kf8 (31.Kh3?? Be5 32.Q- Rxh2#) 31...Be5 32.Qe3 Rb8
|Jun-17-05|| ||aginis: <patzer2> thanks for your analysis by fritz. if 34.Nf5 loses to 34...h5! how about 34.h4 with the idea of Nf5 next move? How does black respond to prevent it?|
but the main point is that RvNP is not a clear win, even at GM level (or should it be ESPECIALLY at GM level?).
|Jun-17-05|| ||patzer2: <aginis> After 34. h4, the winning line for Black is 34...Rd1! 35. Qe3 Rd3! 36. Qe2 Qxe2 37. Nxe2 Rxb3 .|
|Jun-18-05|| ||aginis: thanks i see it now.|
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