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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-09-05 | | Queens Pawn: I couldn't solve it, but take solace in that it took Berger an extra turn to see it. He could have proveeded to Nxh7 at trun 15! |
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| Sep-09-05 | | dl239: Witty's quote:
"... but i could not get the full combination although i was dead sure that this line would lead to win ... but i would say I solved it"illustrates a real misconception.
It's just these type of calculation failures which would keep one from doing the sacrifice over the board. I would not say "you solved it"...you just were "sure" of the first move because the problem was on this website and said "white to play"...it's only fooling yourself to convince yourself that you would have made the move. You likely would not have had the confidence if you were as hazy as you described. |
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Sep-09-05
 | | kevin86: I saw 16  xd8 followed by  xf7+} I think the three minor pieces can force something-aided by the queen later |
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| Sep-09-05 | | snowie1: Wrong choice of words <jahaj>, I was looking at K h8 followed by Be5 mate, but yes, Kg7 is allowed, I just don't beleive a strong player would opt for his K going it alone up the channel; Kg7 18.Be5+ and the K has only 2 sq to
move...h6 or f8, neither looks good since white can bring his Q into the fray, and/or castle, and black's K is getting very lonely with N checks & B
backups. But you're correct in that Kf8 is not forced for 17...it's just that his kingdom is shrinking. |
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Sep-09-05
 | | Gazman5: Didnt get it today, tried the queen sac on g6 first, then looked at Rxd8 and nxf7 ideas without success. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | stevejackson73505: Hi. This is my first kibitz and I'm just wondering what happens if black plays 16 .... Qa1+ ? Is 17. Rd1 best for white(although it gets rid of Rh5+ possibilities) or does he bury the queen after 17. Ke2 Qxh1? I am just curious and can't see all of it. I usually see more. I see that 17 Qd1 Qxc3+ 18. Kf1 Qxc4+ and 19...Kxh7 or 19... Ne6 look good for black. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | farrooj: Welcome to the site!
If Qa1, Ke2...the attack is too strong.
If the queen takes the rook, you can play Rxd8 for example |
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| Sep-09-05 | | starscream74: After spending twenty minutes analyzing 16.  xh7, I was shocked to see that Black actually took the Knight because all the subsequent moves are completely forced and (relatively) easy to find. I was much more concerned about what to do if Black chose to give up the exchange. As <zb2cr> pointed out, one example would be 16...f5 17. xf5. A different continuation might be 17... a1+. At this point, White appears to have won the game but the position is tactically complicated. Another sharp continuation that needs analyzed is 16...e6. A third possibility would be that Black gives up the exchange with a move like 16...c6, 16...e6, or even 16...b5. By declining the Knight, Black prevents all of the immediate mating threats that came into play after (16...Kxh7). There might be a hidden resource, allowing Qa1+ etc., before White gets to castle. At the very least, Black has a passed pawn that would need to be stopped he should resign. Even the apparently suicidal 16...a1+ needs to be considered. It slows White's attack and "only" loses the Queen and a Pawn for a Rook and Knight. Here again Black's passed pawn could come into play. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | percyblakeney: On 16. ... Qa1+ I would have played Rd1 because it looks safe, black's queen is lost because of the Qxg6+ threat followed by quick mate. On 16. ... Qa1+ 17. Ke2 Qxh1 18. Rxd8 white would be in big trouble after Bg4+, but Shredder finds for example 18. Rg5 instead and white is winning. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | starscream74: <farrooj> I think Ke2 and Rxd8 might be really bad. 16...a1+ 17.  e2 xh1 18. xd8 g4+!. Now 19. f3 allows 19...xg2+. White's only other option is 19. Kd2, allowing 19...axd8+ followed by 20...xh7. |
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Sep-09-05
 | | beenthere240: Look at Yudasin vs Benjamin Minneapolis 2005, move 23. I'll bet that Yudasin didn't work that sequence all the way out, but just knew (thanks to thousands of games) that it would put black on the ropes -- analysis by Gulko shows that Black did miss drawing opportunities. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | farrooj: <star> then what about kd2? |
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| Sep-09-05 | | starscream74: <farrooj> At first I was thinking like <percyblanket> and would have responded to 16...a1+ with 17.d1. There White would win the exchange even if his attack on the Black's King is stopped. That is probably what I would play OTB. But the best solution to 16...a1+ may be your 17. e2 combined with 18. g5 as <percyblakeney> pointed out. The Rook on the g file would prevent the Bishop check and threats of 19. xg6+ or 19. xg6+ look devastating. 17. d2 prevents g4+, but the Knight on d8 is still safe. After16...a1+ 17. d2 xh1 18. xd8 axd8+, the check would gain a tempo for Black and allow him to win the exchange after 19...xh7. At that point, I don't see a winning attack for White. 17. d2 should also be followed up with g5.
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Sep-09-05
| | benveniste: <zb2cr>, the best way for black to refuse the sac appears to be 16. ...e6 as <ckr> suggested. That leaves white a pawn up with a solid positional advantage. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | dac1990: Using the aid of the seemingly-omnipotent Fritz 8, I will now analyze this and alternate lines as best I can. Ready? Go! 16.Nxh7!!
[16.Rxd8?! Rxd8 <16 ...Qa1+?? 17.Rd1  > 17.Bxf7+ Kg7 <17 ...Kf8?! 18.0-0 Be7 19.Ba2! Bg4 20.Nxh7+ Kg7 21.Ng5 Bxg5 22.Bxg5 Rd7 23.e4  > 18.Be5+ Kh6 <18 ...Kf8?! 19.Ba2! Ke8 20.0-0 Be7 21.Nxh7 Bf5 22.e4 > 19.Bf4 Qa1+ 20.Ke2 Qa6+ 21.c4 Be7 22.Ne6+ g5 23.Nxd8 gxf4 24.Bg8 Bg4+ 25.f3 Bf5! 26.Qxf5 Qa2+ 27.Kf1 Qa1+ 28.Kf2 Qb2+ =] 16 ...Kxh7 (Fritz actually "thinks" that there are no less than eight better moves for black, but all of them lose anyway; I'll give the top three here.) ---
[16 ...Be6 17.Nxf8 Bxf8 <17 ...Bxd5 18.Bxd5 Qa1+ <18 ...Kxf8 19.Bh6+ Ke8 20.0-0 Kd7 21.Qe4 Qa6 22.Rd1 Kc8 23.Bf4 Ne6 24.Qe5 > 19.Kd2! Qxh1 20.Nd7 Ne6 21.Bxe6 Qxg2 22.Bg3 Kg7 23.Nxc5 fxe6 24.Nxe6+ > 18.0-0 Bxd5 19.Bxd5 Kh7 20.Qe4 Qe7 21.Qf3 Bg7 22.c4 a5 23.Qg3 a4 24.Bg5 Qd7 25.Bxd8 Qxd8 26.Bxf7 ; 16 ...Ne6 17.Nf6+ Kg7 18.Be5 Rd8 19.Ne4+ Kf8 20.0-0 Be7 21.Rfd1 Rxd5 22.Bxd5 Nd8 23.c4 Nc6 24.Bb2 ; 16 ...Nc6 17.Nxf8 Bxf8 19.Rd7! Kh8 20.Rxf7 ]
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17.Rh5+! (the pin is the win!) 17 ...Kg7
[17 ...Kg8?? 18.Qxg6#]
18.Be5+ f6 <18 ...Kg8?? 19.Qxg6#> 19.Rg5! 1-0 [19.Rg5 Qa1+ 20.Ke2 ]
And that's that. If you see any flaw in the analysis, please post it. Fritz is only a machine, and therefore imperfect. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | starscream74: <benveniste> I don't see how White is simply a pawn up. Did you plug that position into a computer and find the continuation? I'm at work and only have my feeble brain to analyse. To me, the position after 16...e6 looks very tactical and White could lose if he is not percise. I decided that if Black played 16... e6, that I was going force the action with 17. g5. Regardless of whether Black takes with 17...c4 or checks first with the Queen 17...a1+ 18. d2 xh1, I would play xg6+. I'm not sure if I made a mistake and left Black off the hook, but regardless 16...e6 looks a lot better than {16...Kxh7). |
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| Sep-09-05 | | dac1990: On another note, the whole disaster could have been averted with the simple 15 ...Ne7  , where white only has a positional advantage that still needs to be proved. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | franksp: YouRang: I'd never heard of Bela Berger.
Bela Berger was prominent in Australia about the time of this game. He was either a master or a strong amateur. His reaching the interzonal at the time was pretty well covered in the Australian chess news. His loss to Spassky was well reported. I do not hear anything about him these days. |
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| Sep-09-05 | | ajile: I saw RxKn RxR and then Knxf7 looks killer for White. |
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Sep-09-05
 | | Boomie: 15...e7 puts up more resistance but does not save the game. 15...e7 16. d1 g4 17. f3 f5 18. e4 b5 19. xb5 h6 20. xf7 xf7 21. exf5 xf5 22. g4 d6 (22...ae8+ 23. xe8+ xe8+ 24. f1 e3 25. gxf5 a6+ 26. c4 xf3+ 27. g2 xf4 28. hf1 (2.41/14)) 23. e2 g7
(23...ae8 24. xh6 h8 25. c1 a6 26. f1 c8 27. g2 e6 28. d3 (3.40/13)) 24. e5+ h7 25. h4 ae8 26. d5 (1.99/13)
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Sep-09-05
 | | YouRang: <franksp> Thanks for the bio. In honor of Bela Berger, I present one of his 2 wins on the CG database. (Of the 2 wins, I believe this game has the more formidable opponent). Actually, it has an interesting K+Ps endgame. B Berger vs Rossetto, 1964 |
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Sep-10-05
 | | patzer2: <dac1990> My initial look with Fritz 8 at about 11 to 12 depth duplicated 16. Rxd8!? Rxd8 17. Bxf7 as best here, and as leading to no advantage. However, when I increased the search to 15 depth and higher, Fritz found 16. Rxd8!? Rxd8 17. 0-0! to have winning potential for White. Obviously, 16. Nxh7!! with a sure win is superior to 16. Rxd8!?, and I can understand the "dubious move" label for the weaker alternative. However, since 16. Rxd8!? appears to give White a small lasting advantage and initiative with some winning chances, I personally prefer to label it an "interesting move (!?)" |
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Sep-11-05
| | benveniste: <starscream74>, I assumed a quick tradeoff of pieces: 17. xf8 xd5
18. xd5 xf8
19. 0-0
At that point, I count 5 white pawns and 4 black ones, which white having the two bishops and better position. The only program I have handy is Arasan, which gets to roughly the same result by: 17. xf8 xf8
18. O-O xd5
19. xd5
17. I think 1. g5 loses to xh7. Unless I'm missing something, the bishop at e6 prevents the combo as played. |
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Sep-12-05
| | Boomie: <benveniste and starscream74> At least 16...e6 leaves black with a choice. Unfortunately the choice is between a rock and a hard place. 16...e6 17. xf8 xd5 18. xd5 xf8
(18... a1+ 19. e2 xh1 20. d7 (6.00/13))
19. h6+ e8 20. O-O c8 21. d1 e7 22. g7 c5 23. d3 c7 (4.73/13) |
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| Dec-24-05 | | trumbull0042: What a great puzzle (16.?). I printed out a bunch of puzzles from early September and I was recently reviewing them. This one could have easily made it into "pin week". |
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