|Jul-23-09|| ||Knight13: <White might better perhaps have waited with this and the following move till he was obliged ; Qd3, Rad1, and Rfe1 seem to be correct.> I agree, but what Schlechter played was equally good. |
<Ne2, f4, and e6 seems stronger.> Tarrash should've put this note on move 20...f5 explaining that the move ...f5? weakens the e6 square and thus Ne2, f4, e6 is effective. But Schletcher is infamous for being the positionally beaten player in many chess books so him not seeing that maneuvre is to be understood.
|Jul-23-09|| ||visayanbraindoctor: <But Schletcher is infamous for being the positionally beaten player in many chess books so him not seeing that maneuvre is to be understood.>|
That's strange. It's a very common occurrence to see Knights being maneuvered to such an outpost, even by patzers. I would think players of super GM caliber such as Schlechter or Teichmann would NOT have missed that in serious tournament play OTB. Rather Schlechter may have been afraid of such moves as Qg5 which would have prevented a Knight jump to f4 and e6. Maybe some one with a computer engine can help..
|Jul-24-09|| ||keypusher: <visayanbraindoctor> |
Pay knight 13 no mind. As you surely know Schlechter was one of the best positional players of his time.
|Jul-24-09|| ||Knight13: Of course, he was so good at positional chess that chess authors decides to ignore his positional wins in chess games and also was so good that he thought the Ne2-f4-e6 was waaaaayyyy too weak for his level of positional understanding.|
|Jul-24-09|| ||Knight13: K I admit was stepping over the boundary with <so him not seeing that maneuvre is to be understood> but what I said before that is all true.|
So, Mr. pusherkey, I guess you were on the far right and I was on the far left......
|Jul-24-09|| ||visayanbraindoctor: If 21. Ne2 and Black replies Qg5.. What then? White cannot jump his Knight to f4. The White Knight will never reach e6. Black now has the simple plan of doubling his Rooks on the open e-file with options to pawn-storm the White Kingside.|
|Jul-24-09|| ||visayanbraindoctor: IMO Schlechter did the right thing. The position called for neutralizing a possible Black initiative down the open e-file. By liquidating Rooks, Schlechter killed any Black hopes for an attack. I do not think this game is an example of Schlechter being a bad positional player.|
|Jul-25-09|| ||keypusher: As for you, young <knight13>, I am going to commend Schlechter vs W John, 1905 and Schlechter vs F J Lee, 1899 as examples of Mr. Schlechter's positional play. |
Not that he was any slouch as a tactician either.
Schlechter vs Meitner, 1898
B Fleissig vs Schlechter, 1895
|Jul-25-09|| ||Gypsy: <Ne2, f4, and e6 seems stronger.>|
Translating Tarrasch's advice into moves (no engine) in a straight forward manner, we get variations like this one:
21.Ne2 Qg5 22.g3 Qe3+ 23.Qxe3 Rxe3 24.Nf4 Rxe1 25.Rxe1 Kf6 26.Ne6 Rc8 ...
click for larger view
Tarrasch had a genius for converting spatial advantages. But this position looks more like it will peter out. Let's say,
27.f4 h6 28.Kf2 Nf8 29.c4 Nxe6 30.Rxe6+ Kf7 31.Ke3 Re8 32.Rxe8 Kxe8 33.Kd3 Kd7 34.Kc3 c6 35.b4 cxd5 36.cxd5 cxb4 37.Kxb4 Kc7 38.Ka5 Kb7 ...
|Jul-26-09|| ||visayanbraindoctor: <Gypsy> That's right. Even if White manages to get the Knight to e6, a Nf8 would immediately neutralize it. I was even thinking that perhaps Black can find a way to just double his rooks, and start pushing his h-pawn without exchanging Queens; and post his Knight at Nf8 if White ever plays Nf4 so that the White Knight can't get to e6 at all.|
There is absolutely no doubt that super GM caliber players like Schlechter and Teichmann would have seen your line above, and other lines as well, and over the board decided that the game was already drawish; so why not get it over with. It wasn't Tarrasch who was playing the game after all. Perhaps Tarrasch could have tried his recommendation, but the game would probably have been drawn in short order anyway. Or if it were Tarrasch who was playing one side, he could have done what Schlechter and Teichmann did anyway.
|Jul-26-09|| ||tamar: Horace Cheshire expressed mild displeasure with Schlechter's drawing tendencies in his bio |
<"He rarely loses a game, but is inclined to miss the just rewards of his labors by lapsing into a draw.">
Here it is not clear he missed any such just reward, and even Tarrasch refrains from saying anything about a win, just that Ne2-f4-e6 was a stronger plan.