< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 3 ·
|Jul-27-04|| ||patzer2: Shamkovich's 15. Bxf6!! is given as the solution to number 1712 in Chess Informant's 1980 Encyclopedia of Chess Middle Games/Combinations. The combination is classified under the theme "Demolition of Pawn Structure" via "Sacrifice at h6 (h3). |
|Aug-15-04|| ||hollowone: Hang on, the sequence in which he does the sacrifices is 15. Bxh6, then 16. Bxe6. If he does 15. Bxe6 first, do we reach the same situation by transposition? I believe so, but I haven't been able to check... |
|Aug-15-04|| ||chessgames.com: That's a good question, I suppose the accuracy of the move order depends on whether or not 15.Bxe6 Nxe5 might work out differently than in the game. We'll ask crafty for an opinion. |
|Aug-15-04|| ||crafty: 15. xe6 fxe6 16. g6 xe5 17. dxe5 e8 18. xe6+ f8 = (eval 0.00; depth 16 ply; 1000M nodes)|
|Aug-15-04|| ||expertbyaugust: hey i was wondering where do you get crafty ? |
|Aug-15-04|| ||markt: and I wonder why it is so complicated to install crafty. |
|Aug-15-04|| ||clocked: 15. ... c5 and black has compensation |
|Aug-15-04|| ||Eatman: I must admit i missed the Bxh6 idea, Nxf7 Bxe6 plan sort of led me astray. |
|Aug-15-04|| ||patzer2: My first post obviously had a typo and should read "15. Bxh6."|
According to Chess Informant's 1980 Encyclopedia of Middle games, the key side variations and options in this puzzle are:
If 15...Ne5, then 16. de5 gh6 17. ef6 Bf6 18. Ne4 .
If 16...fe6, then 17. Qg6 .
If 16...Kg7, then 17. f4 Ne5 18. fe5 fe6 19. ef6 Bf6 20. Rf6! Kf6 21. Qh7!!
If 17...fe6 18. Qg6 Kh8 19. ef6 Bf8 20. f7 Bg7 21. Ne4! Rd5 22. Nf6! .
Note: Currently have Fritz 8 doing a long infinite analysis, and as of now it doesn't look good for this puzzle. Fritz 8 seems to have found a cook in the 16...Kg7 line that equalizes or gives Black a small advantage after 16...Kg7 17. f4 c5! (not 17...Ne5? as suggested by Informant's Encyclopedia of Middle Games) = (-0.09) @ 13/45 depth & 1178kN/s.
|Aug-15-04|| ||bob725: Mine was knight x F7 , king x knight
Queen f5 then king ?f8/g8
bishop x e6 queen to g6 with bishop perhaps taking h6 if king pinned.
At least I had the idea of crashing through king's defences right but I got the whole strategy wrong.Oh well!
|Aug-15-04|| ||Tatinho: "If ...fxe6 18. Qg6+ Kh8 19. exf6 Bf8 20. Ne4! c5 21. Ng5! winning."???
And hxg5? |
|Aug-15-04|| ||cjhasbrouck: Too tough for me. |
|Aug-15-04|| ||sneaky pete: <tatinho> 21... hxg5 22.f7 Bg7 23.Qh5+ Bh6 24.Qxh6# |
|Aug-15-04|| ||kevin86: In this kind of problem,i am a baby among giants! |
|Aug-15-04|| ||Tatinho: Great! Tnx cjhasbrouck |
|Aug-15-04|| ||Gypsy: My line was similar to <Crafty>'s but diverged a bit: <15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Qg6 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Ne8> and now either <17.Bxh6 c5!> or the Crafty's <17.Qxe6 Kf8>. With two pawns and a strong attack for White, either branch seems a good risk, but is far from being decisive. |
I also looked at 15.Ng6, but I am miffed that I did not think of the transposition 15.Bxh6. Transposing like that should be routine.
|Aug-15-04|| ||Chessical: <Gypsy> After: 15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Qg6 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Ne8 <17.Qxe6> Kf8 seems only to be a perpetual.|
18.Bxh6 is probably losing.
|Aug-15-04|| ||Deck: Hello to everyone at chessgames.com! I am quite new to your site though I have quite a bit of experiance with the game of kings. This is quite an interesting problem, quite rewarding to solve. [15. Bxh6!! - a crushing blow!] |
|Aug-15-04|| ||samvega: In the final annotated variation, white does a kind of triangulation with the queen (Qh6+, Qg6+, Qh5+) -- a tactical motif worth remembering, as I've noticed this kind of manoevering is often the key to making a demolition combination work. |
The game of the day is another illustration, by the way.
|Aug-15-04|| ||Canto: <samvega: In the final annotated variation, white does a kind of triangulation with the queen (Qh6+, Qg6+, Qh5+) -- a tactical motif worth remembering, as I've noticed this kind of manoevering is often the key to making a demolition combination work. >
I agree as I have seen my attacks come apart from such defensive maneuvering where two consecutive checks chase my king to a safe square while in turn aligning the check giving material to the threatened area negating the build up of what I saw as a solid positional steam roller of an attack. This kind of theme helps me see a bit further into any given position. Most entertaining.|
I must say this site is a bit of serendipity for me personally. Just seeing the offhand thoughts of what appears to be a very strong chess community is a treasure in and of itself. Kudos chessgames.com
|Aug-15-04|| ||Gypsy: < Chessical: <Gypsy> After: 15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Qg6 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Ne8 <17.Qxe6> Kf8 seems only to be a perpetual.> You are right. At this point, perpetual may be the objectively best continuation for White. Also the other branch, <17.Bxh6>, looks better after 17...Bc8(?) 18.Ne4 or f4, than it does after the stronger 17...c5! But White practical chances here are still worth the risks, I think. |
|Aug-15-04|| ||patzer2: Although I can't prove it with any degree of certainty, as the analysis is too complex even for Fritz 8, I am now convinced 15. Bxh6!! is a sound winning move.|
I had Fritz 8 do an overnight infinite analysis with Fritz 8 on it's analysis of best play for White after After stalling at about 17 depth on my 3GHZ AMD Fritz 8 concluded that White gets about only a slight +0.50 advantage with best play.
Yet in playing over these lines, Black's defense is extremely difficult and tricky with the King stripped of pawn cover and White having all the initiative in the position, with a multitude of complex possibilities at nearly every move for Black to be quickly defeated.
Although it was not too serious an analysis, one fun continuation I played out using infinite analysis in game format with Fritz 8 won for White as follows:
15. Bxh6!! gxh6 16. Bxe6 Kg7 17. f4! c5! 18. Bxf7 Nf8 19. d5 Bxd5 20. Nxd5 Nxd5 21. Rf3 Nxe3! 22. Rxe3! c4 (Fritz 8 initially evaluates it even at this point, but I think White has a win!) 23. Qc3 b4 24. Qe1 Bc5 25. Qg3+ Kf6 26. Rce1! Bxe3+ 27. Rxe3 Rd1+ 28. Kf2 Rd2+ 29. Kf1 Rd1+ 30. Re1 Rxe1+ 31. Qxe1 Rd8 32. Bxc4 Qd6 33. Bd3 Re8 34. Qh4+ Kg7 35. Qg4+ Kf6 36. Qf5+ Ke7 37. axb4 Qd5 38. Bc4 Qd1+ 39. Kf2 Qd4+ 40. Kg3 Qe3+ 41. Kg4 Qb6 42. Bf7 Qd6 43. Bxe8 Kxe8 44. Qc8+ Qd8 45. Qc6+ Ke7 46. Kf5 Qd2 47. Qf6+ Ke8 48. Qf7+ Kd8 49. Qxf8+ Kc7 50. Qc5+ .
Again this is by no means definitive analysis, but perhaps it does illustrate the winning potential 15. Bxh6!! holds for White, and the danger it holds for Black in such "even" or "slightly better for White" positions.
|Aug-15-04|| ||clocked: <patzer2> why are you taking the bishop? what is your line after 15 ... c5 |
|Aug-15-04|| ||Wallyllama: expertbyaugust - Crafty is open source and can be downloaded from Dr. Hyatt's ftp site at ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt
Follow the instructions in the readme file concerning which files (not just the 'Crafty' file) to download and how to set everything up. You will definitely want to get Winboard, or something like it, as well. Be warned, Crafty will kick your butt!(unless, perhaps, your last name is Kasparov). |
|Aug-16-04|| ||patzer2: <clocked> Thanks for pointing out 15...c5! as the correct reply to 15. Bxh6. I'm sorry I didn't notice and respond to your previous post.|
You are spot on accurate on of course that after 15. Bxh6 the simple 15...c5! is Black's best reply.
I suppose play might continue 15. Bxh6 c5! 16. dxc5 Qxc5 17. Nxd7 Rxd7 18. Bf4 Rad8 and Black's active piece development and grip on the open file make it an even game, despite White's extra pawn.
<Clocked> I suspect you are a very strong player. A team of GM specialists missed this when Chess Informant published 15. Bxh6 in 1980 as a middle game problem solution. And you seem to have caught 15...c5! as the spoiler at a glance. I'm very impressed. Thanks again!
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