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|Oct-28-05|| ||jahhaj: <Marco65> Maybe this game is relevant, Martin Herud vs J Leveikina, 2001.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||CowardlyKnight: I've never seen a zugzwang with queen, rook and bishop on the board before. This is the first game I've seen with Steinitz but from what I've heard I didn't think he was one to play such wild chess.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||jahhaj: <CowardlyKnight> Steinitz was the player who thought the king could be a useful attacking piece in the middle game!|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Wilson: CowardlyKnight
Check out "The Immortal zugawang game" Samish Nimzovich 1923. Each side has queen, two rooks, two bishops on the board, and zugzwang move 25!
|Oct-28-05|| ||Queens Pawn: Dionyseus
What is the computer program you use to analyze these positions. I am trying to get better? Does anyone else have a good program?
|Oct-28-05|| ||awfulhangover: I found Rg8! But, I was looking for a bunch of other moves before I saw that idea.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||aw1988: Well, I got this, but only because I've seen this before.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Marco65: <jahhaj> I examined Chekhover vs I Pogrebissky, 1940 where after 11...f5 12.Nd2 Be6 13.Nxe4 fxe4 14.Rxe4 Qd5 15.Qg4 Black could have played 15...Kf7, but thinking it over I think White wins with 16.Qf3+ Kg8 (or Bf5) 17.Rae1|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Eric Xanthus: Wow this was attractive. I found 34..Rg8 after a few false starts, but I expected 35.Rg1 (like some others did) Rxg5. Best part about the game continuation though, is how slick the queen looks slaloming through the white position. It doesn't end with the pretty fireworks you'd get after 35.Rg1, but the geometry of black's moves 35-38 is really something.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||DoctorChess: 34...Rg8! I knew Rg8 was the killer! :-)|
|Oct-28-05|| ||21grams: This is a great chess site people! I got my first puzzle! Zugzwang is great, especially when you see the look on people's face OTB!!|
|Oct-28-05|| ||patzer2: <Isn't the zugzwang already in effect after 31...Rg6-g8? White runs out of non-losing moves pretty quickly after that.> Not exactly. Zugzwang, which is a German word that means "compelled to move," incorporates two essential ideas:|
(1) The position would be defendable (or at least much more secure) for the player in zugzwang if they could break the rules and forego having to make their next move; and
(2) The position is such that any move of a piece significantly weakens the position (usually resulting in a lost position).
Neither of these two elements is exactly present after 31...Rg8. First, while White's position is weaker than Black's after 31...Rg8, foregoing the 32nd White move (if legal or possible) would not make the position any more secure than say playing 32. Re1. Second, since White has moves (e.g. 32. Re1) available which do not make his position significantly weaker or result in immediate loss after 31...Rg8, he is not yet in zugzwang.
Note that it was the weak 34. f5? which allowed 34...Rg8! and made the position a zugzwang, since at that point: (1) white would theoretically have a fairly secure and defensible position (or at least a much more defendable and secure position) if he could legally avoid making any move; and (2) any move of a piece after 34...Rg8! significantly weakens the position (in this case 35. Re1 allows 35...Qxf5 to ).
|Oct-28-05|| ||YouRang: Well, I missed it. Never came close. I might have gotten it with more time (like a month). :(|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Koster: Some questions about this game:
- Isn't 9. bxc3 considered inferior to d5?
- What happens if black tries to keep the extra piece with 11...f5? (I guess marco answered this. So 9. d5 looks almost forced.)
- 28. Qf2 looks too passive. Maybe f5 right away. white might defend with perfect play but not much chance for 60 yr old Steinitz against Lasker in prime of life.
|Oct-28-05|| ||kevin86: Strange,look what the cat brought in today! Strange how with so many heavy pieces that Dr. Lasker could pull off a zugzwang ending,but he did!|
To do it to Mr. Steinitz--WOW!!!
In a title match,too!!
|Oct-28-05|| ||chesscrazy: Interesting game!!|
|Oct-28-05|| ||zb2cr: Humph. Missed it. I thought that 34. ... Re5, with the idea of ... Rxf5 to lure the White Rook off the back rank so that ... Qh1# became possible, was the move.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||snowie1: Lasker's Greatest Chess Games 1889 to 1914 (Rienfeld & Fine) has 14 games with Stinitz, of which game # 29 is this one. Interesting annotations.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||phire: Re4 wins too, and also white isn't compelled to play ... Re5 after Rg8 -> he may just go with Rg1 again. That's why i dumped Rg8 as the answer, but it was actually my first option..:>|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Happypuppet: <Wilson: Check out "The Immortal zugawang game" Samish Nimzovich 1923. Each side has queen, two rooks, two bishops on the board, and zugzwang move 25!>
That was a closed position though, wasn't it? What's impressive here is that this position is wide open.|
<the different square coloured bishops (do you describe it that way, I'm non-native)>
Close enough for people to understand. Most of the time it's called opposite colored bishops.
I don't think I would have gotten this if I didn't know it was zugzwang week. Can't wait to see what chessgames has for us on Sunday.
|Oct-28-05|| ||sharpnova: <patzer2>
your first point is not a piece of the definition or requirements for zugzwang. only the 2nd point.
there could be a position where the side to move only has weakening moves and yet. even if it wasn't their move... and the other side could just upt them in zugzwang anyways.. if it really WAS their move. it would still be zugzwang.. i guess you just made that 1st point up to justify some argument
|Oct-28-05|| ||LIFE Master AJ: I am annotating this game for my website. I thought I could have the job completed in about an hour, but it turned out to be more difficult than I thought. (Every time I checked a different source, they gave a different set of moves or move order for this game.) Interesting.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Richard Taylor: I missed Rg8 altogether I thought the move was 34...Re5 which also seems to win.|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Richard Taylor: The touble with Re5 as opposed to Rg8 (which I missed) is Bxh5. Rg8 is obvious when one sees it!|
|Oct-28-05|| ||Richard Taylor: <CowardlyKnight: I've never seen a zugzwang with queen, rook and bishop on the board before. This is the first game I've seen with Steinitz but from what I've heard I didn't think he was one to play such wild chess. > he did in ethearly stages of his carreer then came his complex manouevering style - Lasker decribes it in his "Lasker's Manual of Chess"|
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