< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Aug-27-05|| ||dasp3edd3m0n: Niiice..I got the full combination =)|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: Easier than yesterday. Black's options were very limitted because of the threat of g7.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||krippp: <56 ... Nf3 57. Bf1 Ne1 58. Kb3 c2> doesn't seem to be winning.|
After <59. Rb6+ Kd5 60. Rb5+ Kc6>
(if the king goes anywhere else, the white rook can take control of the c-file or the white king can go to b2.)
So now white plays <61. Rb4>, ready to fork the king and the promoted queen. There's nothing black can do, and the position is a draw after the queen and rook have been traded away from the board.
Or maybe black could promote a knight with check to prevent the fork, but I won't go into that.. The game still seems to be drawn after that.
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: Tricky analysis <krippp>. Black does have another option however, 56...f3 57.f1 e1 58.b3 c2 59.b6+ d7 60.b7+ d8 61.b8+ xb8 62.g7 c1= 63.g1=+ which I expect is won for Black.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: <trippp> Plus it's not clear that the ending after 56...f3 57.f1 e1 58.b3 c2 59.b6+ d5 60.b5+ c6 61.b4 c1= 62.c4+ xc4 63.xc4 is really drawn. It's a very difficult position but Black certainly has winning chances.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||krippp: <jahhaj> While <60. Rb7+> certainly shows fighting spirit, I'd still go with enforcing the draw by <60. Bb5+> followed by <61. Rc6>. I can't see how black can win the game after white's rook has taken the pawn at c2, followed by Nxc2 Kxc2.|
And the reason why I think the position after my previous analysis is a draw is because all the pieces are pinned to something. The black bishop to the a1-h8 diagonal to stop the passed pawn, the black king has to flee to a8 or b8 to stop the passed pawn, the white bishop needs to guard the f1 square, and the black knight can't really do anything alone. Of course I may have missed something, but right now it seems like a draw.
|Aug-27-05|| ||The beginner: I dident get this one. i could not see a way to win after Bf1.|
Interesting and maybe you are right. can someone show a way to win after the defence from krippp ?
But in your variation, White may play 60 g7 so after
60 g7 ..Bxg7
61 Bb5+ .. king moves
It seems this leads to the same kind of unclear position it may very well be a draw or how would black win it ?
|Aug-27-05|| ||Pretzel Logic: Defeated again by the Friday puzzle, sigh.....|
|Aug-27-05|| ||kevin86: One pawn made of iron,the other of steel.
If the right one won't get ya',then the left one will.
|Aug-27-05|| ||pittpanther: Following up on <jahhaj's> analysis of <trippp's> comments, after 56...Nf3 57.Bf1 Ne1 58.Kb3 c2 59.Rb6+ Kd5 60.Rb5+ Kc6 61.Rb4 c1=Q 62.Rc4+ Qxc4 63.Bxc4 can't white play the knight to f3 and then h2 followed by queening the pawn to win white's bishop and then winning the Bishop and Knight ending? Seems like a plausible winning strategy.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: <krippp> How about 56...f3 57.f1 e1 58.b3 c2 59.b6+ d7 60.b5+ e7 61.c6 f3!. If White plays 62.xc2 d4+ wins a whole rook, if 62.xc2 d4+ 63.b1 xb5 64.c1 xa3+ looks winning to me.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: <pittpanther> That would be a winning plan, but it's not as easy to implement as you suggest. White has to somehow defend his f pawn and fend off the White g pawn as the same time as executing that plan. For instance simply playing 63...f3 64.d3 a2 65.e2 doesn't work.|
I suspect the ending is won, but it's not easy to prove. There are lots of tricky tactics and subtleties.
|Aug-27-05|| ||pittpanther: <jahhaj> In the line you quoted "For instance simply playing 63...Nf3 64.Kd3 Na2 (Nh2 I think) 65.Ke2 doesn't work." Black can play 65 ... f1=Q because the white bishop on c4 does not cover the f1 square due to the king being on e2.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: <The beginner> That's very subtle, by giving up a pawn White's pieces can improve their positions before the f3 move that I gave in response to <krippp>'s line. But White is giving up one of his main assets in the position. |
Say 56...f3 57.f1 e1 58.b3 c2 59.b6+ d7 60.g7! xg7 61.b5+ e7 62.c6 f3 63.c7+ e6 64.a2. I have no idea.
|Aug-27-05|| ||snowie1: It's refreshing to note that several didn't get this one! I'm a Knight-Owl_
and I didn't get this one. Lazlo demonstrates in this game the relative
value of pieces; N vs B PLUS R!!!? In the end, the two dynamics that settled this game were a) the position dictates the value of each piece and pawn!! b) having pawns in two quadrants of the board was also a determinant.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||jahhaj: <pittpanther> Yes I meant h2. But also in the line I was talking about the bishop is still on f1. I missed that you had written 63.xc4, I think 63.xc4 is better.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||bomb the bishop: What would black have done, if white would have played 23. exf6?|
|Aug-27-05|| ||Koster: 23 exf6 Qe5 is good for black.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||Koster: Maybe szabo was in time pressure but unfortunately 56. Bd3 was the worst sq on the diagonal. Not clear if white can win anyway. many endings trade down to R vs N with no pawns, but at any rate he shouldn't lose.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||silentmoon128: instead of advancing the pawn why not
|Aug-27-05|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <silentmoon128> if 57.Rf7, then 57...Ne1+ 58.Kb3 Nxd3 59.Rf3 Ke6 60.Kc4 c2 61.Kxd3 c1=Q leading to a decisive Black advantage.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||sharpnova: easy. 10 nanoseconds|
|Aug-27-05|| ||aginis: < Kripp jahhaj & co.> 56...f3 57.f1 e1+ 58.b3 c2 59.b6+ c5 60.b5+ c6 61.b4 c1= 62.c4+ xc4+
63.xc4 d6! 64.a4 e6 65.a5 f6 66.a6 b8 67.b5 a7 68.c6 xg6 69.b7 e3 70.a7 xa7 71.xa7
I had a sneaking suspicion that this position was a win for black. I envisioned a position with the black on f4 and the black on e1.|
|Aug-27-05|| ||aginis: <continued from above> 71...f5 72.b6 e4 73.c5 Here I got stuck because i couldn't see how to stop Kc4-c3 and eventually Kc2-d1 so I checked the tablebase.
73...c2!! 74.g2 e3 75.f1 d2 76.h3 e2 77.d7 d3 78.b5+ c3 79.f1 e3 80.b5 f5 81.f1 g3 82.g2 e2 83.d6 f4 84.f1 d2 85.c5 e1!! Finally the position i had originally wanted.|
of course, it was
<easy. 10 nanoseconds>
|Aug-28-05|| ||jahhaj: <aginis> Well I'm convinced. I agree the ending after move 71 is won for Black (who can argue with tablebases?) so to save the game White has to find a better plan than pushing his a pawn. I don't see one.|
Nice analysis, I'd looked at the vs ending and just thought 'Nah!'.
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