< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Nov-19-04|| ||Flyboy216: What the?
Crafty gives a +4.90 for 25...♘xc6 (which I thought was the right response, although admittedly my Elo is probably -40), and a forced mate for the text response. What was Tolush trying to do...?
|Nov-19-04|| ||Marco65: I saw 25.Nxf5 wins a piece. No need to "sacrifice like Tal" here.|
<erikcu> After 25.Nc6 the black queen is threatened
|Nov-19-04|| ||tacticsjokerxxx: At first glimpse Nxf5 was my choice, but after looking at Nc6 you realise that works too. typical Tal move.|
however after 25. Bxc6 does Tal need to activate the rook to win, I think..
|Nov-19-04|| ||Marco65: 25...Bxc6 26.Qxf7+ Kh8 27.Qf6# |
|Nov-19-04|| ||tacticsjokerxxx: Ok... i was only looking at 26.Bxf7+ |
|Nov-19-04|| ||ongyj: Hi chessgames.com! Probably Erikcu was thinking of giving up the Queen for a Rook and Bishop 25...Bxb3 26.Nxb4 Bxd1 but with 27.Qxe7 it seems that White is overwhelming with material, isn't it? |
|Nov-19-04|| ||admiralnemo: put me down for 25.Nxf5. The other winning line is just too complicated for a numbskull like me :) |
|Nov-19-04|| ||kevin86: If CRAFTY says that his line puts you ahead 5+,I'm takin' it to the bank.|
<admiralnemo> shouldn't your name be "admiralNIMOY"? HA HA!
I see you went for the most LOGICAL solution!
|Nov-19-04|| ||admiralnemo: <kevin86> I've thought of that, maybe I was unconsciously urged to pick my avatar because of the phonetic similarity between "nemo" and "nimoy". The actual creative process went as follows, however. 1.Anonymous 2.Latin for "no one"= "nemo"3.Captain Nemo 4.Admiral Nemo 5.Spock Avatar with actor coincedentally named Nimoy |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Saruman: Yes! got both 25.Nc6 and 26.Nxf5! |
|Nov-19-04|| ||delterp: The difference between 25) Nxf5 and 25) Nc6 is enormous. I would consider the former a 'Botvinnik' move and the latter a 'Bronstein' move.
Myself, being fully in the Bronstein camp, feel chess should be played for beauty.
The mundane Nxf5 wins material and puts white in a winning position. Nc6 however simply wins. |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Shubes82: looked at Nc6 first. Couldnt follow it through. Knew it was stong because it threatened the queen and the knight on e7. Couldnt see a sure win though. Followed Nxf5 all the way. What after 28) Bxf7 though?? 28)...Rxf7 is obvioulsy a loss because of 29)Re8+. So that leaves 28)...Kh8. Now the white bishop is pinned and the black queen has control of the long dark diagonal and also threatens a back rank mate. Maybe 29)Qh5 or g5 looks plausible too. Any thoughts on how it would finish from that point? |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Shubes82: Per my last comment, do you think Tal saw this line and chose Nc6 because he wanted a quick kill? |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Shubes82: I think that its great you play chess for beauty, but i feel your contradict yourself. A winning position is a win, plain and simple. I think the statement chess should be "played for beauty" is trite and i couldnt disagree with it more. Chess should be played to win, as Bobby Fischer conveyed best. Beauty and art are biproducts of a desire to play the best game of chess possible. My opinion is that youve watched Searching for Bobby Fischer one too many times. Nxf5 is a strong play, and everyone who saw it should pat themesleves on the back. We should continue to play our mundane chess, because it looks like we'll have many wins to come. Best if luck on your chess beauty, delterp. |
|Nov-19-04|| ||drukenknight: I think you misunderstand the context in which that phrase is used, Shubee. |
THe old US player, Santasiere was of that opinion. That you had to play moves for beauty and/or creativity. At least as white. He abhorred the thought of memorized lines.
Because he was playing chess by a theory, an algroithm in his own head. That says "dont do just what it says to do, play what you know to be the best move always."
YOu have to understand at what pt. in the game we are talking about. Sant. woudl probably laugh in your face if you suggest he play Damiano def. or BUdapest. He's not crazy.
But there are times in the game when you KNOW that you have the guy beat, because he obviously has missted it, but you can play a pretty good move, or you can really calculate it out, and you come to find...the move that looks pretty good would probably beat this guy but..and the move I calculate really doesnt win that I can see....
say he has 2 minutes left on his clock, you are up say R for N and you have a pretty good attacking going on his K. And there is one little thing you sort of overlooked but the guy is a dingaling he's never gonna see it in amillion years, and he's so worried about losing that rook pawn he will do something desperate on the a file to stave off mate and w/ 2 minutes left, he wont be able to calculate the stunner move.
SO what do you do?
YOu see. He is talking about a concept like that. The idea of playing in theory and playing "over the board." I.e. practical.
|Nov-19-04|| ||drcdwil: <aw1988> Sorry if I overreacted. And it only took me 3.2 seconds to do so!
<tpstar> yeah, I have boys ages 8,6,5 and 2. And I do like hearing of their modest (so far) accomplishments. Only the 5 year old is interested in chess. |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Skylark: I was looking at 25. Nxf5 Nxf5 26. Bxd5 as the win. ie|
26. ... any move other than h4 or Kf8
27. Qxf7+ Kh8
26. ... Kf8
26. ... h4
27. Qxf7+ Kh8
28. Qf6+ Kh7
When white wins the knight with check, and checkmate or a huge loss of material can't really be avoided.
I guess I was barking up the wrong tree though. :(
|Nov-19-04|| ||erikcu: Yeah I spent some time on it. giving up the black queen is just as bad. It just drags the game out longer. |
|Nov-19-04|| ||Shubes82: Two things...
In response to Skylark, I believe youre evaluation was a little narrow. 26)...Rf8 takes care of the threat on f7 momentarily. White still comes out a piece up, but there is no forced mate yet. Also did anyone look at the rest of the game to see where black went wrong? Would anyone else give 22)...f5 a ?! notation? I feel as though it was a fruitless attack on the queen and gave access to the crucial dark central e5 square, where it cannot be attacked by the bishop. It is also two knight moves from attack and cannot be defended by another pawn. Anyone else agree with this?
|Nov-19-04|| ||pkjohn146: <drcdwil> I suppose now would be a bad time to tell you I solved it in 1.3 seconds? Hah-gotcha, just kidding. <aw1988> good for you, keep at it! Sounds like somebody is really upset because they didn't figure it out as fast. Oh well. The other puzzles this week were, for me, easier than this one. I got the first couple of moves, but that was about it. |
|Nov-19-04|| ||samvega: <Shubes82>
In an earlier post, another kibitzer commented:
<23.Qxf5 Re8 24.Qb1 Nf4 -- is that the motive behind 22..f5? (And if white declines the pawn, as in the game, it screens h7 against a bishop-queen battery)>
|Nov-19-04|| ||crafty: 28. ... ♕xb2 29. ♕xb2 ♔e8 30. ♕h8+ ♔d7 31. ♕xa8 ♗xf5 32. ♕d5+ ♔c7 33. ♖e7+ ♗d7 34. ♕xd7+ ♔b8 35. ♖e8# (eval Mat07; depth 10 ply; 10M nodes)|
|Apr-09-08|| ||Domdaniel: Meanwhile, many years later (I got it! In, lessee, about 29,433 hours ... or 105,958,808.23 seconds, to be precise. How's Kasparov doing as champion these days?)|
Winning method aside, this game features one of the most beautiful unheard melodies of all time: a combination entirely in the notes, never actually played. But Tal had it all worked out.
If Tolush had grabbed the b-pawn with 19...Nxb4 (depending how deep you look, you might think there's enough counterplay to get away with it, between pins, deflections and mate threats. But here's the game position after 19.Be5 ...
click for larger view
... and off we go ...
19 ... Nxb4
[23...Kxf7 24.Qe7+ is mate in 3]
["with an irresistible attack" - Tal]
26 ... Kf6 [others are even worse]
[Black can struggle on hopelessly after 27...Qg5 28.Re6+! winning the Queen]
Exquisite. Of course 34.Rh4# is also quite strong.
|Jan-10-10|| ||msmith5: Nice game by Tal; he seems to drum an attack out of nowhere starting on about move 18.|
Where do you think Tolush went wrong?
My thoughts were:
1) Perhaps passing up the option to trade queens on move 13?
2) Perhaps 17...Bb7? I want to play 17...Be6 here, and now either
18. Ng5 Qd6
18. Qe5 Qc7
18. Rd1 Nc7
All three of which appear to hold, and I can't find a way for white to rip open black's kingside.
|Sep-06-16|| ||zydeco: <msmith5> I think black really should have tried harder to bring the bishop to e6 for a solid defensive position. |
17....Be6 18.Ng5 Qd7 (Qd6) 19.Nxe6 Qxe6 20.Qxe6 fxe6 and black may have to suffer a little in the endgame but should be able to draw.
19...Qb5 forces a decisive position. 19....h6 instead keeps white's knight from g5 and looks pretty safe.
Tolush probably saw that after 20....gxf6 the position would be very sharp; he trusted in his own tactical ability, but just lost to Tal in the ensuing dogfight.
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