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|Jan-22-06|| ||IMJP: The point is that this is no evergreen game, like some (or many, and not only in this forum) had thought. There are many games of lower level players where they sacked more pieces than Tal and got no special credit for it.|
It is a game on a solid simoultaneus level (master vs beginner) and it only additionaly proves how chess has developed, compared to, for example 1970. None (or few, although probably none) of the chessgames.com members would have given Tal the opportunity to checkmate, unlike the beginner (in this game) 36 years ago.
As for the opening analysis, there are other games played in this "variation", which I must see first, if I, or the kids, find the time . Probably other grandmasters "copycats", got "infected" by Tal's win, if it was made public at the time, and continued developing theory in this dubious, for both, variation.
It's also pretty dubious that Black's name is NN, I read in other groups (About Chess) that some actually know who is Black, I forgot the surname now, Salinikov or something.
Tal had some magic around him.
I made some "after midnight errors" when posting,not of critical nature. A blunder should always be commented with a ??, not a ?. ? is simply a weak move. Bh6, played by Black, was a blunder. So, where did White make a mistake, if it were not 13.Nc4?
|Jan-22-06|| ||IMJP: By the way, just saw this "Blow the Whistle". Reminds me of Singapore, where people are "encouraged" every day to spy on their neighbors and report any mischevous behaviour to the police. I didn't stay long enough to find out if this approach helps people become more friendly, or just encourages envy and hate.|
|Jan-22-06|| ||ughaibu: Why single out Singapore when 'neighbourhood watch' schemes exist in plenty of countries?|
|Jan-22-06|| ||IMJP: There was a suggestion some two decades ago, to add as a commentary symbol a small beer bottle, which would indicate a player came "stoned" to his chess game, or started drinking alchohol during the game. This symbol would tell a lot. It was not accepted by publishing companies. I played two games in my life with "stoned" players. It is simply impossible to comment, as an "outsider", well on games that provide "only" the moves. We can only make "educated guesses".|
|Jan-22-06|| ||IMJP: Because in Singapore I saw advertisements on TV, among other media, encouraging for this. I haven't seen this (with my own eyes) in other countries I visited. Singapore is the closest country to "utopia", I have seen, which failed to exist today in the newest episode of the "Charmed Ones" I watched.|
|Jan-22-06|| ||IMJP: Back to Tal.
Tal had one "advantage" in all of his games, against most of his opponents, that many fail to mention. It was allowed smoking.
Fortunately, the World Chess Federation banned smoking on chess tournaments, and this was adopted by all member federations.
I had personal complaints from many players, ranging from beginner to grandmaster, that I created such clouds of smoke over the board (done mostly in stressful game situations), that they couldn't neither breathe nor concentrate. The clouds didn't bother me, "naturally".
Now chess life is much better with the cleaner air everywhere.
|Jan-22-06|| ||whatthefat: <RankAndFile>
At the end of your continuation, it is White who is down a piece, not black. I'd suggest 15.dxe5!? as a possible improvement, but again I'd be suprised if black isn't fine after 15...Be7 or even 15...Ne7.
In any case, I don't see that the move 13.Nc4 can at all be considered an error, as all other moves are losing. In fact it's white's only practical chance. If the combination is unsound then the annotation should reflect that by instead criticising the earlier sacrifices.
|Jan-22-06|| ||beatgiant: <RankAndFile>
<This continuation is flawed because if 13...Ndxe5? 14. Bxg5+! ...Kd7 15.Nxe5+!...Nxe5 16.d4xe5. Black is now down a whole piece(knight)>
Actually Black started out two pieces up, so in your line, 13...Ndxe5 14. Bxg5+ Kd7 15. Nxe5+ Nxe5 16. dxe5 Bb4+, followed by 17...Qg8 and White has only two pawns for a piece. That is probably what <IMJK>'s students found.
|Jan-22-06|| ||ughaibu: IMJP: Television campaigns of that nature have been aired in the UK. I've never paid much attention elsewhere but would be surprised if this were limited to these two countries.|
|Jan-23-06|| ||beatgiant: In the line I posted above, 13. Nc4 Ndxe5 14. dxe5 Kd7 15. 0-0 Kc7 16. Nd6, I missed Black's reply in the end 16...Bxd6! 17. exd6+ Qxd6 18. Qg7+ <Bd7> (connecting the rooks), so White gets nothing here too.|
|Jan-23-06|| ||offramp: What I am puzzled at are the posts of <IMJP>; his first one says:|
<IMJP: Didn't Tal make a blunder (13.Nc4?) in this game>
I asked him a couple of times whar move he thought was better than 13.Nc4 in that position.
He didn't answer, but he has talked about the variation used in this game. He says that,
"<there are other games played in this "variation", which I must see first, if I, or the kids, find the time . Probably other grandmasters "copycats", got "infected" by Tal's win, if it was made public at the time, and continued developing theory in this dubious, for both, variation...>
I don't remember reading such a load of drivel ever in my entire life. Some people don't know when to say 'fair enough, I have made a massive blunder myself - let's carry on."
|Jan-24-06|| ||whatthefat: <I don't remember reading such a load of drivel ever in my entire life. Some people don't know when to say 'fair enough, I have made a massive blunder myself - let's carry on.">|
I don't think I've laughed so hard all day.
|Jan-25-06|| ||beatgiant: <offramp>
If not 13. Nc4, at least White has a perpetual check with 13. Qxg5+ Ke8 14. Qg6+ Ke7 15. Qg5+, etc.
|Jan-25-06|| ||ughaibu: Beatgiant: 13....Kf7?|
|Mar-05-06|| ||IMFSTJP: It's not me who's blundering here, it was Tal and his NN opponent, don't forget. Hehehe. At least give us some credit for uncovering the ultimate truth about this blunderous beautiful game.|
|Mar-05-06|| ||IMFSTJP: "I asked him a couple of times what move he thought was better than 13.Nc4 in that position."|
The answer to this question is completely irrelevant to the game and the previous posts. If you had replied with something like "You're right! Tal made a mistake somewhere and could have gotten himself into a bad or even losing position", followed by "Which move was better than Nc4?", I might have answered to your satisfaction.
The point is that Tal was playing around with his opponent, as it is often done in simoultaneous games, by GMs and IMs. As such, I repeat, the game deserves no space among Tal's evergreen game collection. Only the final combination does, starting with 14.Bg5! and it can remain forever as brilliant checkmate study material.
|Mar-06-06|| ||IMFSTJP: "I want to be a chess romantic, yet this is not always possible" (Tal about himself)|
|Mar-06-06|| ||RookFile: So, for what it's worth, Fritz says this combination doesn't work. It moderately prefers 13. Nf3 over Nc4. Either way, black should win. And no, offramp, 13. Qxg5+ is not a perpetual, black replies with 13.... Kf7, meeting 14. Qf4+ with Ke8.|
|Apr-11-06|| ||beatgiant: <RookFile>
<for what it's worth, Fritz says this combination doesn't work>
I tried to save this combination with <13. Ne4> (since the knight has better opportunities from e4 than from c4).
But after 13. Ne4 Ndxe5 14. Bxg5+ Kd7 15. dxe5 Nxe5 16. Nf6+ Kc7 17. Qc2+ Kb8, I wasn't able to find sufficient compensation for White's material.
Nor was 13. Ne4 Ndxe5 14. Bxg5+ Kd7 15. Nf6+ Kc7 16. Bf4 Qd6! 17. Ne8+ Kb8 18. Nxd6 Nxg6 19. Nf7+ good enough (after 19...Nxf4 20. Nxh8 Nxg2+ Black has a big material advantage).
So I have to agree with <Fritz> at this point.
|Mar-04-09|| ||atahualpa yupanqui: according to chessmaster 11th 13:Nc4 (my cpu is suck so perhaps chessmaster 11th miss something can anyone analys the position after 13:NC4 with a better chess software such rybka or crafty...fritz?|
that's the analysis of chessmaster 11th
39:31 time) (23 depth) (position 599954829)
13...Ndxe5 14.Bxg5+ Kd7 15.Nxe5+
Nxe5 16.dxe5 Bb4+ 17.Kd1 Qg8 18.Qxg8
Rxg8 19.h4 b6 20.f4 Ba6 21.g4 Bc5
22.Rc1 Bd4 23.b3 Bd3 24.Rh3 Be4
|Mar-06-09|| ||alphavillee: |
click for larger view
Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit:
13...Ndxe5 14.Nxe5 Nxe5 15.dxe5 Kd7 16.Bxg5 Bb4+ 17.Ke2 Qg8 18.Qxg8 Rxg8 19.f4 b6 20.Rhd1
(-1.40) Depth: 23
|Mar-06-09|| ||atahualpa yupanqui: thank you a lot alphavillee you was kind to analysis that for me|
so it was true in fact Tal blunder in the 13th move with Nc4....
|Mar-06-09|| ||Antonius Blok: Pure Tal!
He's just PLAYING chess, to not say he's just PLAYING.
|Oct-25-09|| ||WhiteRook48: white doesn't even have to play here... black is creating his own weaknesses|
|Feb-03-11|| ||meppi: unsound schmunsound it worked didn't it?
Why debate over the move 9. Ng5 or 13. Nc4? It's a gamble with a good return for investment. Both moves do not allow a quick checkmate or strong attack by black towards white. With correct defensive play white will go down a piece but that isn't such a bad thing to risk, when the goal of the game is to checkmate.
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