< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-26-08|| ||aldehyde: I think 13. e3 shud have been a savior.
13. ... Bxe3
14. Rf2 Bxf2
15. Qxf2 Nxf2
|Jun-26-08|| ||An Englishman: Good Evening:
Abdulaziz fell into the same trap by transposition nearly 75 years later:
M Abdulaziz vs C Saavedra, 2004
There were a surprising number of weak moves by both Grunfeld and Torre, given how short this game lasts. 5...Bd6 is weaker than 5...Be7, and others have pointed out that Torre should have played 8...Qe7. Meanwhile, Grunfeld starts to go wrong at move 2(!), because Nf3 is premature. Substitute 2.g3,Nf6; 3.Bg2,e6; 4.c4,d5?! and now White can play 5.Nh3! which wins 72.4% of the time in the CG database (which is why 4...Be7 and ...c6 are better).
Still, back in the Twenties the Dutch was little-played and not used except as an excuse for an all-out King side attack. The theory was rather primitive in those days.
|Jun-26-08|| ||Manic: <aldehyde> Yes it seems that although it is still losing it avoids the forced mate. I think 13.e3 13...Bxe3 14.Rf2 and now maybe 14...Qh6 is better than just going for the exchange straight away as if 15.fxe5 fxe5 and the rook is still threatened.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||kellmano: This game amused me. I imagine if i played GMs I'd lose like this all the time.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||DaveyL: I reckon 12. c5 would also have been playable. White's a piece down but black has 3 pieces under fire.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||Travis Bickle: I have a question for you pro's out there. How is an opening or a defense determined in a game? To me it looks like WHT opens with The Kings Indian Attack and I see Black countered with The Dutch. But how is it determined which opening it shall be named? Whichever opening or defense it transposes to the most?|
|Jun-26-08|| ||gtgloner: I'm wondering about 11. f3, find myself in agreement with notyetagm. Seems to me that white's troubles start with this move, since the attack on the black knight potentially opens up the diagonal for the bishop check.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||Jack Kerouac: Hey, 'Englishman'. Good call on the commentary; eh,what?|
|Jun-26-08|| ||kevin86: It's mate in three:
13...♘g3+ 14 hxg3 ♕h6+ 15 ♗h3 ♕xh3#
|Jun-26-08|| ||Duque Roquero: What an impressive miniature by Torre.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||patzer2: With 11...Nxe5!, Black offers White a choice of not one but two poisoned Knights to capture.|
If 12. dxe5?, as in the game continuation, White has captured the most poisoned Knight which clears the way for Black's mate in the continuation given above by <Kevin86>.
If 12. fxe4, then Black gains a strong and near decisive advantage after 12...Ng4! 13. e5 Qh6 14. h3 (14. Rf3 Qxh2+ 15. Kf1 Be7 ) 14... Ne3 15. Qc1 Nxf1 16. Qxh6 gxh6 17. Kxf1 Bb4 . With the exchange-up and no weaknesses in his position, Black has all the winning chances here.
|Jun-26-08|| ||patzer2: I put 11...Nxe5! into my clearance collection since 12. dxe5? clears the d-4 square for the Bishop's King check in a mating combination, and 12. fxe4 clears the way for a strong King-side attack with 12...Ng4!|
|Jun-26-08|| ||DaveyL: Sadly 12. c5 ruins all that - check it out.|
|Jun-26-08|| ||Jimfromprovidence: 11 f3?? was the key (losing) move for white. 11 Nxd7, below, looks just fine. |
click for larger view
Now, black must play 11..Bxd7. At this point, Nc3, Nd2 or c5 are all perfectly valid options for white.
|Jun-26-08|| ||patzer2: <DaveyL> Good catch! Got to admit that after 11...Nxe5! that 12. c5! offers a much better defense than capturing either of the Knights.|
After 12. c5! Ng4 13. fxg4 Bc7 14. Bxe4! dxe4 15. d5 Qg6 16. d6 Bd8 =, it's pretty much leveled out.
Still I think 11...Nxe5! is the best move in the position, even if it's not a clear win. It offers winning chances, especially if White snatches either of the threatened Knights. Also, it gives Black at least even chances or better after 12. c5!
|Jun-26-08|| ||patzer2: <jimfromprovidence> Did you check out <DaveyL>'s 12. c5! to try and keep White in the game? I agree that 11. f3?! is inferior to all the options you gave. However, if 12. C5! holds, I'm not sure that makes 11. f3?! Nxe5! a losing move for white (except in the game continuation).|
|Jun-26-08|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <patzer2> <Did you check out <DaveyL>'s 12. c5! to try and keep White in the game? I agree that 11. f3?! is inferior to all the options you gave. However, if 12. C5! holds, I'm not sure that makes 11. f3?! Nxe5! a losing move for white (except in the game continuation).>|
Yes, there's really no difference material-wise between the two positions.
I like 11 Nxd7 better because white does not have to unnecessarily move his f pawn and he is able to develop his knight and connect his rooks after 11...Bxd7. Just a personal preference.
|Jun-28-08|| ||JimmyVermeer: Travis Bickle, different people name different openings differently. I personally tend to prefer to use whichever one most closely matches the actual opening, though I use both if possible.
In this particular game, White played d4 on his first move, which is not a King's Indian Attack. A King's Indian Attack begins with White playing Nf3 on his first move.
This particular game is a Horwitz Defence. It is listed as a Dutch Defence because Black played f5 on his 2nd move (Strictly speaking, a Dutch Defence is when Black plays f5 on his first move). There is no general agreement as to which would be the correct name to give this opening.
Now you probably already knew this, but just in case you didn't, a move by Black has different names depending on which move White made first. For example, If Black plays e6 in response to White playing d4, it is called Horwitz Defence. But if Black plays e6 in response to White playing e4, it is called French Defence.|
|Dec-02-10|| ||sevenseaman: It must have been an aghast Gruenfeld - nobody climbs the ramparts so swiftly!|
|Mar-03-12|| ||momsteere: Please excuse my novice question: why wouldn't White make a 14th move: |
White Move 14: h2 to g3 to capture black knight & not be checkmated?
|May-28-12|| ||lacker: momsteere: after hxg3, Qh6+ leads to mate|
|Nov-17-12|| ||AlessKnight: 10...Qf6 very suspect, mate web?|
|Aug-29-13|| ||offramp: One of my favourite Very Short Games. 11...Nxe5 seems like madness. It must have shaken Grünfeld to his core.|
|Oct-28-13|| ||Sleeping kitten: <There were a surprising number of weak moves by both Grunfeld and Torre, given how short this game lasts. 5...Bd6 is weaker than 5...Be7, and others have pointed out that Torre should have played 8...Qe7. Meanwhile, Grunfeld starts to go wrong at move 2(!), because Nf3 is premature. Substitute 2.g3,Nf6; 3.Bg2,e6; 4.c4,d5?! and now White can play 5.Nh3! which wins 72.4% of the time in the CG database (which is why 4...Be7 and ...c6 are better).>|
Even after five years, this cannot be left this unanswered.
For one thing, if 5...♗d6 is weaker than 5...♗e7, then current practice is not aware of it: it became the main move a long time ago, and it remains so. In his younger days, Kramnik always placed his bishop on d6.
It is true that most players would play 8...♕e7 to prevent 9.♗a3.
Although the Carlsbad variation (with ♘h3) is very threatening against the Stonewall, claiming that 2.♘f3 is wrong is preposterous. At such an early stage, Black is not bound to play the Stonewall. For example, 2.g3 c5. Just imagine: a high-level tournament, with live comments in the analysis room. It starts 1.d4 e6; then 2.♘f3 and the commentators go wild!
"Horrible! Now Black just plays 2...f5!! and will get a Stonewall Dutch without White's being able to get the Carlsbad variation."
"I'm afraid White's game is in its last throes."
<Sadly 12. c5 ruins all that - check it out.>
My beloved computer has a very neat idea :12.c5 ♘xf3! 13.exf3 ♘xg3! and it claims good chances for Black, who will get three pawns for a knight.
For White, this is of course better than the game or 12.fxe4? Cg4! 13.e5 ♕h6 14.h3 ♘e3 15.♕d3 ♘xf1 16.exd6 ♘e3 17.♗c1 f4 and Black has a big advantage.
Maybe, White should play 12.cxd5 but it's very complicated. White hopes to have enough time to take back a knight and to ruin Black's queenside. For example, 12...♕h6 13.♗c1 ♘g5 14.♗xg5 ♕xg5 15.f4 ♘f3+ 16.♗xf3 (if 16.♖xf3 ♕f6 Black will play 17...exd5 with the better position) 16...♗xf4 17.dxc6 ♗e3+ 18.♔h1 ♗xd4 19.♘c3.
|Apr-05-15|| ||thegoodanarchist: Seems that move 11 is the fatal blunder, as far as I can tell.|
11...? Could be a puzzle. Maybe a Thursday puzzle.
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