< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Mar-31-07|| ||gambitfan: le thème de la 7ème rangée...
the seventh file...
|Mar-31-07|| ||Bingat29: I agree that 29...e6, unsolves the puzzle. I think the puzzle will look better but sadly easier if the position presented is after 29...Qxd6. This is at least solvable. I also saw 29. d6 but figured that 29...e6 refutes the attack. Actually, 29...Qxd6 (or ed6) is not the best move and can be classified as a blunder. With all due respect, for a good puzzle, the reply to the key move should be at least forced or that any other move clearly loses. Perhaps, for the satisfaction of everybody this puzzle should have been presented as "White moves and gains the advantage". Well nobody is perfect.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||GufeldStudent: e6 is the most interesting move, I believe.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||Tactic101: Why didn't black play e6 instead? Maybe someone should bring this up with Chessgames.com, stating that this puzzle isn't completely sound. Black can survive, although his position isn't very comfortable. It is usually better to be uncomfortable, but alive, than comfortable, but chessically dead.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||beenthere240: I think for a top level player 29 ...e6 is just throwing in the towel positionally. It ducks the combination, though, since taking the d pawn loses immediately.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||playground player: I don't think my 29.d6 would have worked, either, if Black had answered e6. Fortunately, my Black half obligingly played Qxd6, unlocking the door for my Bishop.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||realbrob: Maybe Pribyl was in zeitnot when he played 29..Qxd6. The combination 30.Qxd6 exd6 31.Rxd7 should be pretty obvious for a GM..|
|Mar-31-07|| ||fm avari viraf: I think Pribyl played 29...Qxd6 mechanically without giving a second thought & resigned when he realised losing the piece.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||THE pawn: Couldn't find the move thuesday, but I got it today. Don't ask...|
|Mar-31-07|| ||Dr.Lecter: Hmm, I actually missed this one. Probably cause I looked at it for 3 seconds, but I shouldn't make excuses.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||Avarus: I don't think the possibility of 29..e6 is ruining the combination, the point is that ..exd6 and ..Qxd6 lose and the position after 29.d6! e6 is even more miserable for black then before these moves. Mostly because of the weak kingside, not forgetting b7. I don't think the passed pawn is that valid here, it's more about opening the 7th should Bd7 move.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||Timex: Wow. Nice puzzle. Took me 5 min. to figure it out|
|Mar-31-07|| ||wals: <fm avari viraf:> of course, as any honourable gentleman would do.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||IMDONE4: =/, 5/5 lets keep it going|
|Mar-31-07|| ||LAK: I saw the combination played in the game, but like other kibitzers, I did not find a good continuation after 29. d6 e6. I thought that White was OK, but I would not feel particularly comfortable playing that position over the board.|
Instead, I turned my attention to 29. Bc2, with the idea of sacrificing the Bishop on g6. For example, if Black made an indifferent move such as 29. ... b6, then 30. Bxg6 fxg6 31. Rxd7 Rxd7 32. Qe6+, and White is easily winning. I also ruled out any tricks by Black, such as 29. Bc2 Bxg4 30. hxg4 Qxg4+ 31. Rg3, and Black will lose (in particular, ruling out the check with 31. ... Qd1). Although I didn't find anything forced, I thought that White was better than Black after 29. Bc2, and I would feel comfortable playing that position.
Afterwards, I checked my analysis with Fritz10. Fritz, after running for ten minutes gives the following as best play for both sides:
( 1.60/16) 29. d6 e6 30. Bc2 Qd2 31. Rd3 Qc1+ 32. Rd1 Qg5 33. Qxg5 hxg5 34. Rxb7 Bc6 35. Ra7 Bd5 36. Rxa5
( 1.46/18) 29. Qc3 Qb6 30. d6 e6 31. Qe5 Rf8 32. Bc2 Be8 33. Rd3 Rd7 34. Qd4 Qxd4 35. Rxd4 Kg7 36. f4 f6 37. Be4
( 1.33/18) 29. Bc2 Bc8 30. Rxe7 Rxe7 31. Qxe7 Qxe7 32. Rxe7 Bd7 33. f4 Kf8 34. Re5 Rc8 35. Bb3 Rc1+ 36. Kf2 Rb1 37. Re2 h5 38. gxh5 gxh5
In the first line, White obtains two outside connected passed pawns, and is convincingly better. Playing over the second line with Fritz, he finds improvements for both sides to the line given above; further analysis is required. The third line peters out to what (to me) looks like a technical endgame that might not be easy for White to win; there might be improvements for both sides.
As to the quality of the puzzle, I think it's a good position for analysis, but not the most felicitous choice for a tactical puzzle. Perhaps Chessgames should consider publishing a tactical and an analysis puzzle per day, if they have the bandwidth.
|Mar-31-07|| ||imatos: I tried analyzing the position after 29. d6 e6 with Crafty, but the program seems to have completely lost its way in the variations and produces ridiculous lines from the move 31 on. But there seems to be a consensus between both kibitzers and computers that there's no tactical win after 29. ... e6. A +1.60 evaluation means a probable win for White, but still doesn't count as the conclusion of a winning tactic in my book.|
It seems like the chessgames.com staff messed up this one. I'm surprised that they don't check the puzzles using a computer before they post them.
|Mar-31-07|| ||marcwordsmith: Has anyone looked at 29. . . exd6, 30. Bxf7+, Kh7?
That was a line I neglected in my first analysis, but looking now, I think 31. Bxg6+, Kxg6 (or . . .Kg8 32. Bh7+ and if Kf7 then Rf3+; or Kxh7 is answered by Rxd7+) 32.Qh5+, Kf6 33. Qxh6+ etc.
|Mar-31-07|| ||LivBlockade: I don't think 29...e6 "ruins" the puzzle. Not every puzzle is a forced win - the goal is to find the best move. 29. d6! is clearly the best move. If you saw the tactics that allow White to play this highly desirable move (in other words, you realize that White is not just throwing a pawn away), then I think you solved the puzzle. If you spent time trying to answer ...e6, even better. I think lines similar to the one suggested by <Richard Taylor> illustrate a good way for White to make further progress - attack f7, h6, and the rest of the Kingside - Black's ...e6 leaves him with limited defensive resources/mobility, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that White has a winning position, even if we cannot list all of the variations.|
|Mar-31-07|| ||LAK: <LivBlockade: I don't think 29...e6 "ruins" the puzzle. Not every puzzle is a forced win - the goal is to find the best move. >|
Well, I wouldn't use the word "ruins", either. The question, rather, is what type of problems would better serve the community.
Now, it's partly a matter of taste, I suppose, and, of course, one can't argue taste, but, at least in my mind, there are (among others) two distinct types of exercises: tactical and analytical (for lack of a better word). Tactical exercises serve to cultivate tactical vision. Analytical exercises aim at improving calculation. [Another type would be one to improve positional skills, but a) I'm not sophisticated enough to attempt this sort, and b) I haven't really found a good training book or CD.] Although there's obviously overlap, I believe that a good training program tries to find examples that emphasize the difference between the two types. I could be wrong, but I interpret the "Problem of the Day" to be the type of problem that falls in the tactical category.
A good example of this type can be found in the following game, played by (of all people) the player of the day (on the losing side).
Look at the position after 29. ... Qe7. White to play (and win):
Kasparov vs E Pigusov, 1977
(Kasparov's attack starts earlier!)
There's a stark difference compared to the problem of the day, no?
Let me emphasize that I'm grateful to CG for posting these problems. Hopefully, this type of debate can serve to make the site even better.
|Apr-01-07|| ||scholes: i almost cracked the sat puzzle i did ponder the exactly the same line here but
so i thought that best continuation for black would had been d6 ♖c8 ♖xc8 ♗xc8 dxe7 ♗e6 ♗xe6 fxe6 ♕xe6+After that i was unable anything better than perpetual .I also considered the line d6 exd6 ♕f6 ♖f8 and d6 e6 ,exd6 didn,t look any good for black with queen and bishop so close to the king but i was unable to find anything concrete .Why didn't black played e6 after that his position looked solid to me|
|Apr-01-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: I'm not very happy with the puzzle quality (PAGBUG: Puzzle And Game Both Utterly Blundered), but gave myself full credit for finding 29.d6 and for the analysis of what happens if black takes that pawn (loses a piece if taken with the queen, forced mate if taken with the pawn). As most everyone else, I also saw 29 ... e6 as the correct response from black; my idea for the next move was 30.f4, with the idea of continuing with f5 and disasembling the black's pawn structure. Subsequent computer analysis appears to support that move.|
One thing about this puzzle: although, strictly speaking, it was invalidated by 29 ... e6, the d6 move has an important property that it is VERY easy for the black to respond incorrectly. As far as I can tell, any response other than e6 leads to serious advantage for the white.
|Apr-01-07|| ||scholes: my engine confirmed what i thought
click for larger view
+1.09 29.d5d6 e7e6 30.Bb3c2 Rd8c8 31.Re3b3 Qb4xa4 32.Rb3xb7 Rc8xc7 33.Rb7xc7 Qa4b5
so i am 6/6 since last sunday
|Apr-01-07|| ||scholes: FEN: |
click for larger view
13 -3.63 29. ... Qb4xd6 30.Qe5xd6 e7xd6 31.Rc7xd7 Rd8xd7 32.Re3xe8+ Kg8g7
13 -1.20 29. ... e7e6 30.Bb3c2 Qb4d2 31.Re3d3 Qd2g5 32.f2f4 Qg5xe5 33.f4xe5 Bd7c6 34.Rd3c3 Kg8g7
13 -8.80 29. ... Rc8 30.Rc7xd7 Qb4c5 31.Qe5xc5 Rc8xc5 32.Re3xe7 Re8xe7 33.d6xe7 Rc5e5 34.e7e8Q+ Re5xe8 35.Bb3xf7+ Kg8f8 36.Bf7xe8 Kf8xe8
16 -M9 29 .. exd6 30.Bb3xf7+ Kg8h7 31.Qe5f6 Qb4e1+ 32.Re3xe1 Re8xe1+ 33.Kg1h2 Re1h1+ 34.Kh2xh1 Bd7c6+ 35.Kh1h2 Bc6xa4 36.Qf6xg6+ Kh7h8 37.Qg6xh6+
atleast got 1 line correct
|Apr-01-07|| ||Richard Taylor: <LivBlockade> No - these are not realy puzzles per se they are examples of ideas strategies, ingeniuty and tactics.|
The pointis to get the main ideas. E.g clearance for the B on b2 to exert pressure on the Black position and so on.
The various ingenious attacks whether found or not are a bonus - I don't always try to solve these - I often just look up the game to get some ideas.
Other times I try to work them out as much as I can. I once solved a very complex game by Keres, and a few other weekend ones - one by Tal - - but mostly I just solve the ones that take few minutes and look up the others if I cant get them - I often say - "It looks like he will attack by..." and then I just look up the game...OTB I would be concentrating much harder to win and might even see more.
These "problems" are not part of a competition.
|Apr-01-07|| ||kevin86: An interesting puzzle;white uses a pawn as a monkey wrench,scurrying black's pieces. Its capture only leads to another form of chaos.|
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