< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Nov-22-07|| ||patzer2: <eaglewing> <about 17. Qg4 Qa6 18. Qf3...try to upgrade the defense with 18...Nd2> After 17. Qg4 Qa6 18. Qf3 Nd2, White gets much more than a pawn if he plays 19. Qxf7+ Kd8 20. Qd5! .|
click for larger view
(Position after 17. Qg4 Qa6 18. Qf3 19. Nd2 Qxf7+ Kd8 20. Qd5! .)
|Nov-22-07|| ||eaglewing: <patzer2> Agreed. I did not look very much into it. |
Now I think about 17. Qg4 Qa6 18. Qf3 f5 19. Qxf5 g6 20. Qf7+ Kd8, however, both Qd5 and Bb2 (+Ra1) will be strong.
|Nov-22-07|| ||patzer2: The final position is instructive as, after the forced 24...Kc8, White wins quickest following a double attack to pile-up on the pinned piece with 25. Be7! .|
click for larger view
(Position after 24. Bg5+ Kc8 25. Be7 .)
|Nov-22-07|| ||znprdx: I thought 17.d5 to be followed by Qf3 was sufficiently dominant |
17.Qg4 is a move of elegant simplicity which seems almost too good to be true and certainly had the desired shock value, but I am surprised ...17Qa6 wasn't tried given Black's strength.
The brilliant delaying of Qh5 was a fresh idea - and curiously enough White might not have necessarily chosen to go for the rook after 19...f7xg6[N] since 20.Qxb5+ would also win the c5 pawn. Following with Bg5 would cripple Black
21.....Qa3?? The last chance to survive was ...Qe4
|Nov-22-07|| ||Samagonka: I agree with all those who say it was a rather difficult puzzle. The other rest who claim to have got every move are either good liars or master minds!|
|Nov-22-07|| ||willyfly: This looks like another one of those games that started out fast and furious. After only 17 moves the board is an almost barren landscape. Black has the material advantage with two extra ♙s but Black's ♗ and ♖ are trapped behind a wall of ♙s, the ♘ is dim on the rim and while the ♕ has full command of the a8/h1 diagonal it is backed into a corner where it lacks mobility. By contrast White has the space advantage and mobility of pieces. |
The first tactical idea that comes to me is to sac the ♘ to bring the ♔ to f7 and then check with the ♕
17 ♘xf7 ♔xf7 18 ♕h5+ and now wherever the ♔ goes White has good responces.
if 18...♔e6 19 d5+ or 19 ♖e1+
if 18...♔f6 19 ♗g5+
but I think the ♔ will probably seek shelter in the cove of g8
18...♔g8 and then 19 ♕e8 Δ ♖e1 pretty much wraps it up.
Did I finally get one right? Let's look and see.
|Nov-22-07|| ||xrt999: I dont like 8...Qd5. It feels like a wasted move. I think black should have been more concerned with developing pieces and solidifying his position.|
|Nov-22-07|| ||patzer2: <willfly> I too was looking at 17...Nxf7 as a candidate move. However, after 17...Nxf7 18. Kxf7 18. Qh5+ g6 19. Qxb5 c5! 20. Bf4 Bg7 it is White who is fighting to hold the draw.|
|Nov-22-07|| ||Brown: The Qa6 defense came up in a quickly (read: poorly) calculated line by white.|
17.Qg4 e6 18.Nxf7? Kxf7 19.Re1 Qa6
|Nov-22-07|| ||RandomVisitor: Perhaps Black should have tried 7...Bb7 -0.07/18 or 7...Nxc3 8.bxc3 <Bb7> -0.08/18.|
|Nov-22-07|| ||LoveThatJoker: < patzer2: <LoveThatJoker> After 17...Qa6 18. Qf3! f6 (18... Qe6 19. Qb7 ) 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 <h6>, White goes up decisive material with 21. Nxh8+ (diagram below): |
click for larger view
After 20...h6 21. Nxh8+ in the line given here.>
Patzer2. You need to get your eyes checked man. 20...HG. G as in George.
|Nov-22-07|| ||LoveThatJoker: If you don't believe me re-read my initial message.
|Nov-22-07|| ||LoveThatJoker: <patzer2: <Dr. J> After <17...Qa6>, I like 18. Qf3! f6 (18... Qe6 19. Qb7 ) 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 Rg8 21. Nxf8+ Kxf8 22. Bh6+ Rg7 23. Qg4 .> |
This is good Patzer2. 18.Qf3! is a star attacking move but in the line 18...f6 (18...Qe6 19. Qb7!! ) 19.Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 better for Black is 20...hg 21. Qxh8
Synopsis: Objectively speaking White has the better chances (i.e., more coordinated, a 1 point material advantage) but Black is not totally lost yet, as in the other lines, and has at least a chance to fight on.
|Nov-22-07|| ||skychess: How about in 17. ... Qd5 as a defense. If white plays 18.Qc8 then 18. ... Qd8. Am I missing here something?|
|Nov-22-07|| ||road2nowhere: skychess, then 19Qxd8+ Kxd8 20Nxf7+ and 21Nxh8
|Nov-22-07|| ||DarthStapler: Qg4 was one of the moves I considered, but I didn't see anything after e6. Now I see Qh5 g6 Nxg6 and if fxg6 Qe5 Rg8 Qxe6+|
|Nov-22-07|| ||newzild: I got this - with two slightly different moves. Qh5 followed by Qh3. Same result|
|Nov-22-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <LoveThatJoker>
I don’t think that your line 17 … Qa6, etc. is necessarily better than the line played in the game, but it certainly is creative. Black played perfect defense until 21… Qa3. If black had played 21…Qb7 instead, as <whiteshark> presented, black would have been in a much better position to defend.
In fact, I would take this amended game position over your alternative. You don’t say what your next moves are but if 21 …Qe6 then 22 Bf4 Nd7 23 Bxc7 wins another pawn, putting white ahead a full rook for bishop exchange.
In the actual game scenario after 21…Qb7 instead of …Qa3 I don’t see a win for white anytime right away.
I await any replies.
|Nov-22-07|| ||DarthStapler: Doesn't Qh5 first allow Qd5?|
|Nov-22-07|| ||patzer2: <LoveThatJoker> Maybe I do need to have my glasses checked. I read your 20...hg as ...20. h6 and not as the 20...hxg6 you intended. |
After <17...Qa6 18. Qf3! f6 (18... Qe6 19. Qb7 ) 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 hxg6>, White wins with 21. Qxh8 (+2.62 @ 16 depth, Fritz 8).
The advantage with strong play is decisive (nearly three rather than one point up) because of White's exchange up, more active pieces, better coordinated pieces, more space and Black's weaker King position.
|Nov-22-07|| ||nateinstein: I'm not sure Qg4 should be a puzzle move. Actually, I chose it as the best move because there are really no other forcing continuations. I would have played Qg4 in a real game(but not because I saw the text follow through). I did not see Nxg6, but I did see e6 was the only way to stop the mate threat. I think this puzzle should have started at move 18 or 19.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Jimfromprovidence: <LoveThatJoker> I don’t think that your line 17 … Qa6, etc. is necessarily better than the line played in the game, but it certainly is creative. Black played perfect defense until 21… Qa3. If black had played 21…Qb7 instead, as <whiteshark> presented, black would have been in a much better position to defend. In fact, I would take this amended game position over your alternative. You don’t say what your next moves are but if 21 …Qe6 then 22 Bf4 Nd7 23 Bxc7 wins another pawn, putting white ahead a full rook for bishop exchange. In the actual game scenario after 21…Qb7 instead of …Qa3 I don’t see a win for white anytime right away.|
I await any replies.>
Hi Jim. Thanks for your note. I definitely am impressed with Whiteshark's idea of 21...Qb7 in the actual game continuation. It's a good move.
As it relates to my continuation after 21 Qxh8, I at no point was thinking of 21...Qe6, but rather 21...Nd7 giving black a glimmer of hope that he could save this thing - very very hard of course, but still some hope.
Would I choose 21...Qb7 of the actual game continuation over the defense I was considering of 17...Qa6 leading to 21. Qxh8 Nd7 is a good question.
And after looking at the position more and more I somehow feel that Whiteshark's idea of keeping the Queen on the long-light square diagonal and on b7 (possibly supporting a rapid advance of the b and c pawns, for counterplay purposes) is a better alternative. And the reason why this is so is because of the pawn shield in front of Black's King.
Somehow the pawn structure in front of Black's monarch - after White wins the Exchange - involving pawns on e6, f7 and g6 inspires more confidence in me than that in my previous line, of pawns on e7, f6 and g6. It just looks safer I must say.
So yes, I think that ultimately 17...e6 was the best defensive move. 17...Qa6 or 17...Qb7 for that matter would have been interesting but probably just a tad looser.
And with the position being what it is and with essentially a 1 point material disadvantage against him, I just can't see Black allowing any more positional concessions favouring White.
Good on Whiteshark for finding the move and good on you for pointing it out to me, Jim.
I agree with 21...Qb7 in the actual game continuation as the strongest defensive continuation for Black.
|Nov-23-07|| ||LoveThatJoker: P.S. I want to thank Patzer2 for analyzing my and Dr. J's former defensive line of 17...Qa6 18. Qf3! f6 (18...Qe6 19. Qb7!!) 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 hg on Fritz8.|
I would just like to point out that the whole point of my argument though was that the above line was sounder than 17...Qa6 18. Qf3! f6 (18...Qe6 19. Qb7!!) 19. Qh5+ g6 20. Nxg6 Rg8 21. Nxf8+ Kxf8 22. Bh6+ Rg7 23. Qg4
However, as I've written in my previous note, now I know that it wasn't the <soundest> - as I find 17...e6 (of the actual game continuation) and 21...Qb7 as the strongest line put forth thus far.
|Nov-23-07|| ||patzer2: <LTJ> You're welcome.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||kevin86: Happy Thanksgiving (after the fact). The surprize mate threat diverts black's attantion-so white can go in for the kill.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·