Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing

(If you register a free account you won't see all these ads!)
Andre Lilienthal vs Alexander Kazimirovich Tolush
Parnu it (1947), EST, rd 1, Jul-14
King's Indian Defense: Normal Variation. Deferred Fianchetto (E72)  ·  1/2-1/2


NOTE: You are using our new chess viewer, "Olga." For more info see the Olga Quickstart Guide. You can switch back to the old viewer (pgn4web) from the pulldown menu below. If you have questions or suggestions see our Olga chessforum.

explore this opening
find similar games 5 more Lilienthal/Tolush games
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: All games have a Kibitzer's Corner provided for community discussion. If you have a question or comment about this game, register a free account so you can post there.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-09-11  LIFE Master AJ: I analyzed for 45 minutes, but came up blank, nothing even close to a win as far as I could see ...

My two main moves were 28...BxP/g3+ and then I switched over to 28...Bg1+.

If there is a win here, its over my head. (Time to check.)

Oct-09-11  LIFE Master AJ: <Treestar> I like your idea, be good to check it with an engine ...
Oct-09-11  LIFE Master AJ: Haha, its a draw, the joke is on me.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <LIFE Master AJ> Bg1 hop along buytch and the lord sayeth unto thee lush it is pasture nead dogh and fish in either g3 or g1 cock a hoop rufus green Lillenthal qg2?
Oct-09-11  Patriot: What is black's goal? If you evaluate the position correctly based on material, you would say "His goal is at least a draw." But if you misevaluate this (the way I did) and think black is winning, then 28...Bg1+ or 28...Bxg3+ looks highly questionable. He should go for a win and play something like 28...Kh6. The big threat is 29...Be4, but 29...Bd5 safely prevents it.
Oct-09-11  Treestar: <Life Master> Yeah, thanks for checking turns out the attack starting with <Kh6> is product of fevered brain, eg after pawn to g5 White's Bishop on g8 neutralizes the wsb by going to h7! Ouch. At least Black can still draw after <28...Kh6 29.Bg8, Bg1+> but not after <29.Bd5> Tolush earned his half point.
Oct-09-11  eaglewing: <al wazir: 37...d5> It does not change anything. White does not need to attack that pawn with Bc6 or with the King towards a7. Consider the situation:

a) White's pawn are on black squares, untouchable by the bishop. b) Just the black King can meaningful attack and the white King is ideally positioned at d4. Any advance on the lines c,d and e is blocked. c) Therefore, the pawns dictate advancement pathes (g-pawns exchanged on h4 or not) only along the squares a4 or f5. The white bishop takes care of this. d) Blocking away the bishop from the diagonal b1-f5 with the black bishop opens up a counterattack option towards h5 or with a check against Kf5+Bg6 or like in the endposition with the King towards a bishop on f3.

Still, was Ke3 necessary? Even with unmoving Kd4 and Bd3 I don't see, how the maneuvre Bg4/Bf3/d6-d5/Be4 should be successful. After Bxe4, dxe4, Kxe4: Black will get the opposition with Ke6 but it does not help following Kf4, the white King is more advanced with respect to the line of scrimmage given by the pawns h4+h5. That counterbalances the opposition.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Did anyone wonder why this was a <Tuesday> puzzle back in March 2004? At that time, the now traditional ascending level of difficulty had not been established.

No, we haven't gotten dumber. I think.

Oct-09-11  goldenbear: Speak for yourself <Phony Benoni>.
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Black might have tried 38...g4

click for larger view

Plan is to find a static position, maybe Black's LSB on d8 defending h5 and attacking a4. Black wants his King to circle around the board on black squares and eventually get to g3. If the White King tries to get to h5, Black starts pushing the d pawn. I am not sure White can hold on to both g3 and the a Pawn, especially with a free move in hand with the d Pawn. Far beyond my skills to figure out and I think an engine would need 40 plies.

Oct-09-11  Jose Ortiz Elias: I spent one hour in this position, but coudn't find something definitive favouring white. After multiple explorations with 1. ..., g5; 1. ..., Kh6; and 1. ..., Bd3 I coudn't find a clear combination. My best progress was with 1. ...,Bg1+; 2. Qxg1,Qe2+; 3. Qg2,Qxg2+; 4. Kxg2,Be4+; 5. Kf2, Bxb7 and white's position is a little unstable, but after: 6. Be8 (6. Be6 gives black more time to advance with the king), Ba6; 7. Ke3, Bxc4; 8. a3, Kf6; 9. Kd4,Bf7; 10. Bc6,Kf5; 11. Bf3 and I cannot figure how how to penetrate white's lines. I should be missing something. Time to check.
Oct-09-11  Jose Ortiz Elias: Well, after all it was indeed a draw! Bus I thing it's fair to call this position as "insane" one: if the title was "black to play and draw", it would have been an easy one. I will check if 6. Be8 is safer or not for white, without giving a pawn.
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <JOE: I cannot figure how how to penetrate white's lines. I should be missing something. Time to check.>

I have played some more with the idea I posted. I am not optimistic Black can penetrate. Too many ways to lose a move with a Bishop to pull off the zugzwang ideas I envisioned.

Oct-09-11  Old Wolf: Bxg3+ is slightly better than Bg1 in the sense that we get an extra pawn if white goes for the option to allow Qxg2+ (otherwise it's just a perpetual)
Oct-09-11  stst: Insane! Can only work out a perpetual for Bk:
29.Bd5 dis+ Kh6
30.Rxa7 Bxg3+
31.Kh1 Qe1+
32.Qg1 Bd4+
33.Bxe4 Qxe4+
34.Qg2 Qe1+
35.Qg1 Qe4+
36.Qg2....etc (34-36 repeats)
Other lines lead to exchanges - Bk gains no advantage.
Oct-09-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: White is up a full exchange, but the immobolization of the white king and queen by black's coordinated queen and bishop pair suggests possible winning chances. White's battery on the 7th offers active counterplay and prevents 28...Be4??, so black must either shelter the black king or invite an endgame where black has winning chances. However, black doesn't seem to have a comfortable king shelter from which serious threats can be maintained, e.g. 28... Kh6 (threatening Be4) 29.Bg8 g5 (otherwise 30.Rh7#) 30.hg+ Kxg5 (Kg6 31.Bh7+ Kxg5 32.Bxf5 Kxf5 33.Rf7+ wins) 31.Rg7+ Kh6 32.Re7! (32.Rf7 Be4! 33.Rxf2! Bxg2 34.Rxg2 also looks drawn) Qxe7 33.Qxf2 the bind is broken and I don't see any winning chances for black. Instead, I vote for

28... Bg1+! and white may be wise to take a perpetual:

A) 29.Kh1! (threatening Bd5+ then Qxg1) Bf2+ 30.Kh2=

B) 30.Qxg1? Qe2+ 31.Qg2 (Kh1?? Be4+) Qxg2+ 32.Kxg2 Be4+ 33.Kf2 Bxb7 and now black has a tempo for a favorable ending where white has the more vulnerable pawns:

B.1) 33.Bd5?? Bxd5 34.cxd5 Kc6 and black wins the d-pawn and the ending.

B.2) 33.Be8? Ba6 34.Bb5 Bxb5 35.cxb5 Kf6 36.Ke3 Ke5 37.a4 Kd5 38.Kd3 Kc5 39.Kc3 d5 40.Kb3 (Kd3 Kb4 wins) d4 wins.

B.2.1) 36.a4 Ke5 37.a5 Kd5 38.b6 ab 39.a6 Kc6 wins

B.2.3) 38.Kf4 Kc5 39.Kg5 d5 40.Kxg6 d4 41.Kxh5 d3 42.g4 d2 43.g5 d1=Q+ wins.

B.3) 38.Be6 Kf6 39.Bg8 appears to hold.

Time for review....

Oct-10-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: White actually went into my B.2 line, but gave up the c-pawn and kept bishops on the board. This was likely the safest defense.
Oct-10-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: <B.3) 38.Be6 Kf6 39.Bg8 appears to hold. > should have read <B.3) 33.Be6 Kf6 34.Bg8 appears to hold. >
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <eaglewing: Even with unmoving Kd4 and Bd3 I don't see, how the maneuvre Bg4/Bf3/d6-d5/Be4 should be successful.>

If white does nothing after 37...d5, black's plan is to attack white's K-side ♙s via Kf5, Kf4, Kxg3, Kxh4. White must either defend or counterattack against black's a-♙. For example, 38. Ke3 Kf5 39. Bd7+ (39. Kf3 d4 40. Bc6 Bc4) Be6 40. Bd6 (white must not trade ♗s because black is a ♙ up) Kg4 41. Kf2 d4.

Oct-10-11  CHESSTTCAMPS: Postscript: I set up the puzzle position (with colors reversed) under Crafty EGT. The link is at

Crafty shows that black should not even think about 28... Kh6. Some of the other endings that were reached (or could have been reached) should be set up independently.

Oct-10-11  eaglewing: <al wazir: 37...d5 and black attacks via Kf5, Kf4, Kxg3, Kxh4> and <OhioChessFan: Black might have tried 38...g4>

Both ideas won't work due to the same defense. <al wazir>, you overlooked my remark, regarding static defense, of Bd3!

More precise to remark would have been Bc2 (and/or Bd7), because that are the squares which control the only squares (a4+f5) to penetrate/attack the white position/pawns with the black King.

If the white Bishop controls these squares, no successful attack, the King cannot cross into the rows 1-3. Due to several lines between a4 and f5 these points can only be attacked one at a time, no double threat and no Zugzwang, because effectively not only these squares are sufficient to place the white Bishop, just one place on the diagonals towards those attacking squares is enough.

The attacking idea is expanded by blocking away the white Bishop with the black one. White cannot exchange, like you mentioned <al wazir>, but hurries away into a position to take again control of one of the square-connected diagonals, because the black Bishop needs to leave to give the black King access to the crossing point. This access is then immediately denied again by the white Bishop.

Black: Ka5 + Be8-a4
White: Kd4 + Bc2/b3 moves to d5/f5
Ba4-d1 Bc6/d7

In general the same is valid for black to position Kf6 and Bf5, the white bishop evades to a4/b5. However, there is the special case of Kf6 + Bg6, same evasion Bb5, but an immediate Kf5 needs to be answered with Bd3+ and is enough, because attacking further with Kf4 (g-pawns exchanged) loses the Bishop on g6.

Oct-10-11  eaglewing: Addon: The immediate attack 37. ... Kf5
just holds due to the counterattack on g6.

37. Bb5 Kf5 38. Bd7+ Be6 39. Be8 and Black would get no gain to exchange all kingside pawns.

Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <eaglewing: Addon: The immediate attack 37. ... Kf5 just holds due to the counterattack on g6. 37. Bb5 Kf5 38. Bd7+ Be6 39. Be8>

I understand this. I don't understand the rest of what you've posted. Write down a sequence of moves (like the one above), rather than just a bunch of ideas.

37...d5. Now what? If 38. Bd3, then 38...Be6, with the possible continuation 39. a4 Bf5 40. Bb5 (40. Bxf5 loses) Be4 41. Bd7 Ke7. Black threatens to go after black's a-♙

Oct-11-11  eaglewing: <al wazir> I never wrote White should move a3-a4! You need the pawn on a3 to control the square b4. Only then the only king-intrusion square is a4. You opened up b4, too.

37.Kd4 d5 38. Bd3 Be6 39. Bc2 Bf5 40. Ba4 Be4 41. Bd7 and no crossing at f5

41. ... Ke7 42. Bc8 Kd6 43. Ba6 Kc6 44. Be2 Kb6 45. Bd1 Ka5 46. Bb3 and no entrance for the King.

Sure, White needs to be careful, especially if Black uses its Bishop to take control of either the a4-e8 or the a4-d1 diagonal, but then a move like Kd4xPd5 or Bxd5 or Bxg6 might give an easy counter. The black bishop cannot to everything, protect all pawns and block a diagonal free.

Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <eaglewing: I never wrote White should move a3-a4!> That was just a suggestion. I made it because your posts weren't specific.

I guess you're right. Black has no way to break through.

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 3)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
NOTE: You need to pick a username and password to post a reply. Getting your account takes less than a minute, totally anonymous, and 100% free--plus, it entitles you to features otherwise unavailable. Pick your username now and join the chessgames community!
If you already have an account, you should login now.
Please observe our posting guidelines:
  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.
  3. No personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No posting personal information of members.
Blow the Whistle See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform an administrator.

NOTE: Keep all discussion on the topic of this page. This forum is for this specific game and nothing else. If you want to discuss chess in general, or this site, you might try the Kibitzer's Café.
Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of, its employees, or sponsors.
Spot an error? Please submit a correction slip and help us eliminate database mistakes!
This game is type: CLASSICAL (Disagree? Please submit a correction slip.)

Featured in the Following Game Collections [what is this?]
28...? (March 23, 2004)
from Tuesday Puzzles, 2004-2010 by Phony Benoni
28...Bg1+! = forces a draw
from Decoy by patzer2
karlzen's favorite games
by karlzen
KID Normal Var. Deferred Fianchetto (E72) 1/2-1/2 Saved!
from KID Warlords Roast Fredthebear by fredthebear
28...? (Tuesday, March 23)
from Puzzle of the Day 2004 by Phony Benoni
KID Normal Var. Deferred Fianchetto (E72) 1/2-1/2 Saved!
from White Ne2 Waved to Fredthebear by fredthebear
from 53a_Middlegames: Positional Exchange Sacrifices by whiteshark
KID Normal Var. Deferred Fianchetto (E72) 1/2-1/2 Saved!
from Minors on the Back Rank Watching Fredthebear by fredthebear
28 ... ? Black to draw
from Favourite puzzles by derbyc
28. Bg1! amazingly saves a draw for black.
from Awesome draws by Vischer
from 53a_Middlegames: Positional Exchange Sacrifices by Jaredfchess
28...? (October 9, 2011)
from Sunday Puzzles, 2011-2017 by Phony Benoni
xyz_creative Soviet Players, fairly underrated
by whiteshark
adadekola's favorite games
by adadekola
Black to play and draw after 28. Bxf7
from's Daily Puzzles (#2) by Minor Piece Activity
KID Normal Var. Deferred Fianchetto (E72) 1/2-1/2 Saved!
from c4d4e4 all 4 by fredthebear
28...? (Sunday, October 9)
from Puzzle of the Day 2011 by Phony Benoni
32a_B:B=; same colour
by whiteshark

home | about | login | logout | F.A.Q. | your profile | preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | new kibitzing | chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | privacy notice | contact us
Copyright 2001-2017, Chessgames Services LLC