< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Sep-20-16|| ||Once: Interesting puzzle. I stopped after finding 44... Qg2+, but YouRang's 44...Ra8 also seems good enough. |
The only issue we might have with 44...Ra8 is that white has time for 45. Rb7 followed (after Ra1) by a series of checks on b7 and b8. We would need to calculate that white doesn't have a perpetual, say by introducing his knight with check to f5.
Fritzie also finds 44...Qe2 which puts white into a world of hurt:
click for larger view
|Sep-20-16|| ||gofer: <YouRang: I decided that the easiest way is <44...Ra8>>|
You are probably right as far was easiest way to win the white queen,
but I am not sure that this is the easiest way to <calculate> to a win.
44 ... Ra8 gives white more options and that is never a wise thing to give your opponent. As we have seen at lease <Once> before, a <GOOT> is always a risk (as you might have mis-calculated) and highly unlikely on a Tuesday. <44 ... Ra8> offers white at least 4 choices; d6, Rxf4, Nd1 and even Qxh6+. <44 ... Qg2+> offers white 2 choices.
1) 45 Qxg2 hxg2+ 46 Kg1/Nxg2 b2
2) 45 Nxg2 hxg2+ 46 Qxg2 Nxg2 (46 Kg1 gxf1=Q+ 47 Kxf1 b2) 47 any move b2
The result is pretty much the same, but a forcing sequence is always going to be easier to <calculate>...
|Sep-20-16|| ||morfishine: <44...Qg2+> wins instantly|
|Sep-20-16|| ||et1: this one was easy...and beautiful|
|Sep-20-16|| ||awfulhangover: Ouch..! I felt smart since I saw 44.-Ra8
Now I feel silly coz I didn't calculate 44.-Qg2+!
|Sep-20-16|| ||newzild: <gofer>:
<44 ... Ra8 gives white more options and that is never a wise thing to give your opponent.>
"Giving your opponent more options" is standard strategy in some situations.
1) when your opponent is in time trouble.
2) When you are trying to create a positional game by avoiding forcing lines.
|Sep-20-16|| ||Herma48852: 44... Qg2+ 45.Nxg2 hxg2+ 46.Qxg2 Nxg2
47.Kxg2 b2 followed by b1=Q
Beautiful promotion to queen combo!
|Sep-20-16|| ||clement41: ...Qg2+ screams out to be played, and it can be found either by the traditional method consisting in looking at all checks first, but also by seeing that seemingly any endgame would be won for black thanks to his far advanced b pawn (supported by the b8 rook, in the event of a rook ending). Hence ...Qg2+ not only simplifies into an endgame but also frees b2 for the pawn. 0-1|
|Sep-20-16|| ||catlover: I saw <You Rang>'s solution and also game solution. Did not see the alternate solution proposed by <Once>, but it seems to work. |
Wow...it is indeed a very bad position when the opponent has at least three legitimate lines to force a win.
|Sep-20-16|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Yeah, even Nunn saw Qg2.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||patzer2: Early in the opening, instead of 8. Bg5, the most popular alternative is 8. Be2 as in Aronian vs Caruana, 2016.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||Willber G: <catlover: Did not see the alternate solution proposed by <Once>, but it seems to work.>|
With respect to everyone, it was <Jimfromprovidence> who first suggested 44...Qe2.
|Sep-20-16|| ||johnlspouge: Stockfish gives the following evaluations for White after each move|
23...Bc8 [24.Bb5 +0.4]
24...Nde5 [25. Ne3 0.0]
In other words, Stockfish loathes the plan of exchanging Ne3 for Bg7. Although the B is often effective with the backing of the Benoni P chain, the N was apparently required on defense against the marauding Black Ns.
|Sep-20-16|| ||kevin86: My move is ...Ra8. The text is best. after the queens and knights are forced away, the b-pawn cannot be stopped.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||YouRang: <gofer><You are probably right as far was easiest way to win the white queen, but I am not sure that this is the easiest way to <calculate> to a win.>|
To me, 44...Ra8 really isn't about winning the queen at all. Once ...Ra1 is played, white is facing a forced mating sequence (...Rxf1+ Nxf1 ...Qg2#). Winning the queen is incidental.
I agree with your general point about wanting to reduce your opponent's options, but in this case I thought it was pretty easy to see that the options were hopeless.
Sure white has moves like 45.d6 or 45.Rxf4, but they obviously don't address the 45...Ra1 mating threat.
45.Nd1 is still met by 45...Ra1 (46.Nxb2? Rxf1#)
45.Qxh3? Nxh3 and ...Ra1+ (and soon mate) still looms.
In the unlikely event that white plays on, he will have to play Kg1, and that again is just a longer forced mating sequence (and it doesn't even require us to promote the pawn).
<Once> pointed out that white has time to answer with 45.Rb7, which is probably white's best delay tactic (45...Ra1 and then rook checks, 46.Rb8+ etc). But it's only a delay tactic because my king merely has to approach the rook and take it.
I did consider the potential complications with white's knight, but those are easily avoided by keeping the king on light squares, e.g. 46.Rb8+ Kh2 (avoid Nf5+) and then zig-zag toward the rook via g8-f7-e8-d7-c8 game over.
IMO it's not about having to calculate any long series of moves. It's just about recognizing that white has nothing but desperation delay moves, as is often the case when facing a forced mating attack.
Again, I'm not arguing that 44...Ra8 is better that 44...Qg2 by any means (in fact ...Qg2 is a bit flashier). But it was the first thing I noticed and I quickly satisfied myself that it was a forced mate.
|Sep-20-16|| ||jith1207: Everyone's a Winner Today!|
|Sep-20-16|| ||Gilmoy: <zb2cr: A. 45.Nxg2+ hxg2+ A1 ... 47.Nc4 is a desperate attempt to> ... use the same Knight twice :)|
|Sep-20-16|| ||Cheapo by the Dozen: I love Tuesdays!|
|Sep-20-16|| ||dzechiel: I agree with YouRang. White's position is so sad that black has multiple approaches to bring home the point.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||whiteshark: <Cheapo by the Dozen: I love Tuesdays!> Me, too!|
|Sep-20-16|| ||LIzzard: <YouRang> I went for Qg2 in the puzzle, but if it was an actual game, I suspect I would have ended up with Ra8 (wouldn't be immediately looking for a sacrifice as in a puzzle). |
You're right that the entire chase isn't necessary to see - at least I wouldn't be able to do so - but it is a clear way to put white in a desperate position that they have to keep you in check perpetually and can't finish
|Sep-20-16|| ||catlover: <Willber G: it was <Jimfromprovidence> who first suggested 44...Qe2.> You're right. Sorry for the oversight. <Jimfromprovidence> often contributes interesting alternative lines.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||morfishine: <Jimfromprovidence> Sure, these moves all win, clearing the b-file for the inevitable advance of the Black b-pawn|
Everybody gets a ribbon
|Sep-20-16|| ||eternaloptimist: I solved this puzzle quickly. After I started analyzing a line starting w/ 44...♕g2+, I saw the ♙ fork & knew I found the best line.|
|Sep-20-16|| ||Jimfromprovidence: Nice to see <dzechiel> hopefully back in the mix.|
He was to the "dean" of this puzzle page back when I joined almost 9 years ago.
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·