< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·
|Mar-21-08|| ||vibes43: I considered 28.d6 for reasons discussed but didn't settle on it. No way did I see 33.Qc7 while ponderig move 28.|
|Mar-21-08|| ||emonys: White has winning move 28:Qg6 cant't be stopped, did everyone overlook this?|
|Mar-21-08|| ||eblunt: < ivansachelov: no, eblunt, on a second look it seems like the mistake is wholly mine ;)..hmm. > Thanks. I thought I was going mad. I just still don't see a line for white against 28 ... ♕e5 that leaves white better than the alternative :|
28. ♖xb6 ♗xb6 29. ♕f5 g6 30. ♕f6 ♗c5 31. b4 ♗e7 32. ♕xa6 ♕e5 33. ♕xb5 pretty clearly winning for white.
That <MostlyAverageJoe > gave us. Thus for me 28 ♖xb6 is the solution.
|Mar-21-08|| ||eblunt: < emonys: White has winning move 28:Qg6 cant't be stopped, did everyone overlook this? >|
After 28 .... fxg6 , run me through your winning line ..... :)
|Mar-21-08|| ||Creg: Since I too enjoy Davids posts <Dzchezel> that is, I have decided to join the fray. |
White to play, material is equal, and we have bishops of opposite color. The general rule of thumb with BOC is the one on the attack has an advantage. Okay, so the two rooks and queen on the g-file also make this an obvious assumption so lets move on with an attack.
wait, I see something already. 1.Qg6!! is this correct? Well it threatens 2. Qh7 mate so lets see blacks options.
1...fxg6 2. Rxf8 mate, oops, that's not mate we have a nasty bishop on c5, hmm. Lets re-evaluate, something seems right here, except for move order.
New white candidate moves
The idea of d6 is to block the bishops protection of f8, but lets look at Qf5 first.
1. Qf5 as this threatens the same mate at h7 without putting the queen in harms way, but what to do with blacks reply 1...g6. 2. Qxg6 or 2. Rxg6 both fail, so lets return to...
1...Bxd6 loses to 2.Qf5, when 2...g6 can now be answered by 3. Rxg6+! fxg6 4.Qxg6+ and mate next move.
1...Rxd6 loses to our original plan of 2.Qg6! (now the bishop is blocked from protecting f8) 2...fxg6 3. Rxf8 mate, yes this time it's mate
1...Qg5 seems best, lets try.
2.Qe4 g6 and now
3.rook or queen capture g6 loses a piece, so lets look for more first by attacking.
3.Rxf7, am I crazy or does this work?!
3...Rxf7 4. Qe8+ and I think the king will be mated shortly either by 4...Rf8 5.Qxf8+ and mate follows. The same holds true if the king simply moves to g7 or h7 as the queen or rook can simply capture the rook at f7. All this is possible because the bishop is blocked in by the pawn move to d6 earlier.
3...Bxd6 4. Qe6 I think is the move to find here. White threatens double check with 5.Rxf8+ the question is what can black do to stop it?
If the king moves, which leaves him with only 4...Kh8 then 5.Rxf8+ Bxf8 6.Rxf8+ and mate next move with 7.Qf7 or Qg8mate.
If the king does not move then double check is unavoidable and white must be able to win from that point forward. We haven't lost a piece, and the king is in danger of being mated. So white will either win a piece or mate the king.
Okay, as David says time to check...
|Mar-21-08|| ||Creg: First off I miss-spelled Davids ID it is <dzechiel>, secondly I seemed to have gone deeper then necessary, and lastly I discounted black's game choice of Qxd3 as I felt that simply won a queen for white and it was just a matter of time for the win, which it was. I'll need to work on simplifying the thought process, but it was my first attempt at Davids method, and at least I did find d6... :)|
|Mar-21-08|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Creg: ...
1...Rxd6 loses to our original plan of 2.Qg6! (now the bishop is blocked from protecting f8) 2...fxg6 3. Rxf8 mate, yes this time it's mate>
Check out last post from <Magic Castle> -- it explains why it is not a mate.
There is no Qg6 in any of the winning lines, as far as I recall.
|Mar-21-08|| ||emonys: eblunt,you are right I was thinking to fast only 6 ply, I didn't see the g6 pawn blocking the white bishop for mate on the move 28:Qg6 move sorry|
|Mar-21-08|| ||UdayanOwen: Thankyou to the numerous people here who have reminded me about freedom of speech, and the value of long posts. Why should I bend to <aazqua's> selfish demands? The practices on this site certainly should not hinge on <aazqua's> personal needs only. The final conclusion is that <aazqua> is the egocentric one. Story finished.|
|Mar-21-08|| ||johnlspouge: Hi, <znprdx>. I had a long day, so I got to the analysis of 28.b4 later than I expected, and I decided to throw the question to a computer. (My immediate 28...Be7 response was from memory, and I had forgotten Bc5 protected Rb6.)|
Toga II 1.3.1 analysis for your 28.b4 yielded
[ply 15/40, time 00:22, value +0.34]
28.b4 Rxf6 29.Rxf6 Be7 30.Rf3 Qe5 31.Rf5 Qe1+ 32.Rf1 Qe5 33.Qf5 Qxf5 34.Rxf5 Bd6 35.g3 f6 36.Kg2 Kf7 37.Rf1 Re8
so White has a little pull, but not a winning position. (I included all of the variation, but the variation is undependable toward its end, because of the computer's algorithm.)
Toga checked out <Harpenden woodpusher>'s variation as well, but 28...Qg5 is worse than 28...Rxf6:
[ply 16/45, time 00:13, value +5.28]
28.b4 Qg5 29.Qe4 g6 30.h4 Qe3 31.bxc5 Rxf6 32.Rxf6 Re8 33.Qf4 g5 34.hxg5 Qxf4 35.Rxf4 hxg5 36.Rf5 Re1+ 37.Kh2 Kg7 38.Rxg5+ Kf6 39.Rf5+ Ke7 40.Rf4 Re5 41.Rxd4
To add a human touch here, I really like little pawn pushes like 28.b4, and I enjoyed 28.d6 today. They seem rarely to be the key move in the the puzzle of the day, but maybe our silent hosts will surprise us next week!
My chessforum has detailed instructions for downloading freeware for chess analysis, but from our previous discussions, I do understand that extensive computer analysis is not really your thing :)
In any case, I hope we continue to enjoy the interaction of our different perspectives.
|Mar-21-08|| ||xrt999: < A.G. Argent: >
sir, I am sorry to inform you that I have put you on ignore for using the word "chippy" in your post.
This word does not exist.
Good Luck to you sir.
|Mar-21-08|| ||Gypsy: <FerociousBeast: Still a bunch of 12 year old kids here who can't even copy the analysis off their chess program correctly.> Ferby? My gosh, where have you been all this time? Wellcome back, we missed you around here! Last post of yours I recall, you were heading for Tripolis -- how did that go?|
|Mar-21-08|| ||A.G. Argent: <xrt999> Knock your self out, pal.|
|Mar-21-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<xrt999> wrote: <A.G. Argent:> sir, I am sorry to inform you that I have put you on ignore for using the word "chippy" in your post. This word does not exist.>|
<<A.G. Argent> wrote: <xrt999> Knock your self out, pal.>
one who runs a fish and chips stand; immoral woman (Slang)
adj. of or containing chips, resembling chips
For bothering to look this word up, I am finally going to put myself on ignore. Good evening.
|Mar-21-08|| ||handle: I thought
28 Rxf7 Rxf7
29 Q-c8+ leaves Black with only a useless Rook interposition.
Woulda gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for that meddling bishop.
|Mar-22-08|| ||Creg: <MostlyAverageJoe> Yes, Qg6?? is a blunder. During my initial thought process I saw the idea of placing the Queen and bishop on the b1-h7 diagonal. I realized later that Qf5 was the correct placement for the queen, as noted during my post, but I forgot to correct it while typing.|
Then again my objective was to accomplish the thought process identical to David's, which was using notepad to write out my thoughts before going to the game itself. Then I posted so I wouldn't be tempted to make corrections after seeing the game played out.
Regardless I thank you for pointing it out as you could not have possibly known this.
|Mar-22-08|| ||egilarne: <eblunt>: < ivansachelov: no, eblunt, on a second look it seems like the mistake is wholly mine ;)..hmm. > <<Thanks. I thought I was going mad. I just still don't see a line for white against 28 ... Qe5 that leaves white better than the alternative :
28. Rxb6 Bxb6 29. Qf5 g6 30. Qf6 Bc5 31. b4 Be7 32. Qxa6 Qe5 33. Qxb5 pretty clearly winning for white that <MostlyAverageJoe > gave us. Thus for me 28 xb6 is the solution.>>|
<Jason Frost>: <Intiresting side line I just realized that black didn't have to take the pawn, and looking over the position again with firtz after 28... Qe5 white has to play very accuratly to win 29. Rxh6! Rxd6 30. Bh7 Kh8 31. Rh5!! Qe3 32.Bxh7+ (Qh4 also wins here) Rxh7 33. Qc8+ Rd8 34. Qxd8+ Bf8 35. Qd5+>
<Jason Frost>'s line is on page one, and should read: (28.d6! Qe5)
29.Rxh6! Rxd6 30.Bh7+ Kh8 31.Rh5! Qe3 (necessary, if Qe6? there's a mate with 32.Bxg6+ Kh8 33.Rh8+ Kxh8 34.Qh5+ Kg8 35.Qh7+ mate) 32.Bg6+ Kg8 (Qh6 also loses) 33.Bxf7+ Rxg7 34.Qc8+ Rd8 35.Qxd8+ Rf8 36.Qd5+ Rf7 37.Qxf7+ mate.
|Mar-22-08|| ||eblunt: < egilarne: > Makes it a bit clearer, but for me , in Jason's line Black's better playing 31 .... f7-f5 (blocking the rook attack on the queen) and he can struggle on, although after 32. ♗g6+ ♔g8 33. ♕h3 ♖xg6 34. ♖h8+ ♔f7 35 ♖xf5+ Black is down on material and will lose eventually.|
|Mar-22-08|| ||egilarne: <eblunt>: < egilarne>: <Makes it a bit clearer, but for me , in Jason's line Black's better playing 31 .... f7-f5 (blocking the rook attack on the queen) and he can struggle on, although after 32. Bg6+ Kg8 33. Qh3 Rxg6 34. Rh8+ Kf7 35 Rxf5+ Black is down on material and will lose eventually.>|
31 ... f5 is no better than 31 ...Qe6, because of 32.Bg6+ Kg8 and not 33.Qh3? but 33.Rh8+ Kxh8 34.Qh5+ Kg8 35.Qh7+ mate
|Mar-22-08|| ||egilarne: This tactic Rh8+ ends this known amusing game, the Pipe Game:
Marshall vs Burn, 1900, in this position:|
click for larger view
|Mar-22-08|| ||eblunt: <egilarne: > Yes, see it now, thanks for that.|
|Mar-23-08|| ||patzer2: For the Friday March 21, 2008 puzzle solution, White plays 28. d6!! to prepare 29. Qf5! which wins decisive material because of the threats against Black's weakened castled position. See <dzechiel>'s post on page one of the kibitzing here for a good detailed explanation.|
|Mar-23-08|| ||patzer2: I think I'll put 28. d6!! in my obstruction collection, since it wins by obstructing the Black Rook's critical defense of the g6 square.|
|Mar-24-08|| ||znprdx: <johnlspouge:>&<Harpenden woodpusher:> 28.b4!? Rx[R]f6 here was my point: 29.b4x[B] sacrificing the exchange for two connected passed pawns (which if they reach the 6th are worth a rook). |
Presuming ...Rx[R]f1+ 30.Bx[R]f1 there are many possible continuations. Here follows one of the more interesting ones ...30.Qf2
31. Qe2 Qf5 32.Qf3 Qxc2 33.c6 Rd8 34.h4 (or h3) Qc5 34. Bd3 and now the d5 pawn is poisoned due to c7 ...rather pretty donít you think?
Of course this is only plausible human play - and certainly not forced. When these type of pawn pushes work it is usually because there is a hidden element of potential surprise as in this example.
|May-14-14|| ||Poulsen: I believe, that 28.d6 is an examble of the Novotny theme occuring in practical play.|
Another example of this rare theme:
E MacDonald vs Burn, 1910 - 33.-,Qg4!!
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