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|Nov-01-11|| ||Memethecat: simple exchange winner <14Qxd5> if <14...exd5 15dxe6+ ~ 16dxc7>|
|Nov-01-11|| ||Pensive: Stein vs B Furman, 1969|
|Nov-01-11|| ||zb2cr: 14. Qxd5 wins a Knight. If 14. ... exd5; 15. exd6+ opens the King file with a discovered check that wins back the Queen. Other moves just allow White to run away with the loot.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||sevenseaman: <Pensive> A good game. Thanks for the link Stein vs B Furman, 1969.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||Patriot: There is a "seed of tactical destruction" here. The queen and rook x-rays through to the black king and the file can be opened with exd6. This would be a red flag during a game that something might be there and it means you should switch to "puzzle mode" to see if anything relating to this works.|
14.Qxd5 exd5 15.exd6+ nets a piece. I then looked at moves that might refute it, like 14...Nb4 or 14...Ne7 and couldn't find anything.
|Nov-01-11|| ||DrGridlock: There is speculation that 14 exd6 is also a solution to the puzzle. This does not work: Qxd5 is the only solution.|
In the 14 exd6 line, the continuation is given 14 ... Qxd6 15 Nxc4 Qc7 16 Qxd5 leaving White a knight up. Black's alternate continuation 15 ... Qe7 foils this line.
|Nov-01-11|| ||sevenseaman: <DrGridlocks> I see, < Q e7 does foil>. Very nice, it clears a blind spot. Thanks.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||gawain: <Piltdown Man>: I got your joke about Biro's queen being "penned in." Most American participants will miss it. In the UK a Biro is a ballpoint pen. But the word does not have this meaning in the US, where we might call a ballpoint pen a "Bic" (originally a brand name, like the British "Biro"). |
(I'm an American who lived in England for a few years, so I am bilingual.)
|Nov-01-11|| ||johnlspouge: < <Dr. J> wrote: [snip] If you take another look at your link, you'll see that Winter is quite skeptical that this story is true. >|
That's one of the reason I specifically gave the link. I had heard the story elsewhere as true.
|Nov-01-11|| ||kevin86: I too reversed the moves-Dr. Gridlock provided the refutation to that---so the immediate queen sac IS the proper and unique solution.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||sevenseaman: <johnlspouge> I too have read of the <Capablanca>'s impish sarcasm, but from a different source that I cannot recall.|
I rarely forget something that makes me smile.
|Nov-01-11|| ||Phony Benoni: <Pensive> I should point out that it was <newzild> who first made the comment about the Sicilian.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||gregkoch: For the moment, set aside the proper defense 1.exd6 Qxd6 2.Nc4 Qe7 and assume that you had to decide between the following two variations over the board:|
1) 1.exd6 Bxd6 2.Qxd5; or
2) 1.Qxd5 exd5 2.exd6+
1.Qxd5 is the stronger option, in my view, for two reasons. First, we are reducing the total number of pieces on the board--useful because we are winning material--and, in particular, we are removing the queens from the board, which will limit counterplay. Second, this line opens the e-file for the white rook on e1, which will be useful for the remainder of the game if the black player chooses to continue playing a piece down. It is important to note these slight differences in variations when we are making decisions over the board.
As it turns out in this example, the 1.exd6? variation allows Black more defensive options than the immediately violent 1.Qxd5!.
|Nov-01-11|| ||Gypsy: <gregkoch: For the moment, set aside the proper defense 1.exd6 Qxd6 2.Nc4 Qe7 ...>|
A forcing advantage is is still there:
3.Qxd5 exd5 4.Nd6+! Kd8 5.Rxe7 Bxe7 6.Nxf7+ Kc7 7.Bf4+ Kb6 8.Nxh8 Rxh8...
|Nov-01-11|| ||scormus: Not really relevant, but I recently played my first game for some years against a human opponent. I was B, played Sicilian and the square that haunted me the whole game was ... |
Yes, d5 :(
|Nov-01-11|| ||M.Hassan: <sevenseaman>:
Thank you so much. You put my mind at more ease than last night. I guess the main difference between 14.Qxd5 and 14.exd6 is that in the former case,efile becomes opened whereas in the latter case it stays closed.
How much of a big difference this makes for White who has become winner in exchange?
I have not had any other comment regarding my line. Thanks to you again
|Nov-01-11|| ||BOSTER: <Phony Benoni> "<It is not a move,that you must seek,but a realizable plan>" -Znosky-Borovsky.|
If black followed this idea, maybe they didn't play 13...a6.
After short journey Qd8-Qb6-Qc7 queen should play 13...Qb8. At least on b8 the long hand pawn e can't reach it.
|Nov-01-11|| ||Pawn Derous: Possibly
the exchange of blows gaining material for white. Well, Pawn-Derous got this one. What will tomorrow bring?
|Nov-01-11|| ||whiteshark: <14.Qxd5 exd5 15.exd6+> and that's it.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||stst: No clear checks, but
15.PxP dis+ Be7
gives W some advantage, at least the exchange.
|Nov-01-11|| ||rapidcitychess: The ending position looks as if white simply pushed all the pieces on the e-file to the d-file.|
|Nov-01-11|| ||sevenseaman: <M.Hassan> Its alright. It has been education for me too. I started
wondering how come there were so many winning lines. I did not see
the defense <15...Qe7> until it was pointed out by <DrGridlock>. |
It really felt odd that the Q should be putting itself between the K and White R. We should both feel thankful to him.
I have known you as an earnest poster who seriously seeks truth rather than transient glory.
|Nov-02-11|| ||M.Hassan: <sevenseaman> and <DrGridlock>
<15....Qe7 foils this line>
Meaning the line starting with 14.exd6
As you mention: we both should be thankful to him. You are right and I extend my thanks to you and <DrGridlock>
This was the most logical way that proved why line 14.exd6 does not work compared to 14.Qxd5
Before seeing this, I truely beleived that my line was one of the ways to solve the puzzle whereas it is not.
I also thank you for drawing my attention to this and your comments.
|Nov-02-11|| ||gregkoch: <Gypsy: A forcing advantage is is still there: |
3.Qxd5 exd5 4.Nd6+! Kd8 5.Rxe7 Bxe7 6.Nxf7+ Kc7 7.Bf4+ Kb6 8.Nxh8 Rxh8...>
White is indeed comfortable at the end of this line, but his material advantage is only a pawn rather than a whole piece.
|Nov-02-11|| ||Gypsy: <gregkoch> No argument there, <14.Qxd5...> is clearly superior to <14.exd6>. |
(A knight versus pawn superior, to be exact.)
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