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Vladimiro Pina vs Duarte Duarte
Lisbon (2001), Lisbon POR, rd 6, Aug-26
Caro-Kann Defense: Advance Variation. Van der Wiel Attack (B12)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: I think 28.Nxd5! wins, e.g. (1) 28...Qxa4 29.Nb6+ Ke8 30.Nxa4 leaves W a pawn up with more active pieces, and Black's pawn on c5 hanging; (2) 28...Nxd5? 29.Rxf7+ followed by taking the free queen on c6; (3) 28...exd5 29.Rxd5+! Nxd5 (on 29...Ke6, 30.Rd6+ or even 30.Qxc6 Nxc6 31.Rd6+ should win) 30.Rxf7+ and now either 30...Ne7 31.Rxe7+ Kxe7 32.Qxc6 or 30...Ke8 31.Qxc6+ Kxf7 32.Qxd5+ followed by Qxc5 leaves White with a won ending.
May-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Woops -- missed the game continuation.
May-02-08  234: Thursday puzzle <23. ...?> May-01-08 Soltis vs Z Kozul, 1989
May-02-08  Terry McCracken: <parmetd: Nxd5 beautiful and easy.>

Really? Well you never solved it. In fact 28. Nd5 is on the edge of losing, in fact it may lose as White is down a Night without any real compensation other than the extra pawns which may prove difficult to hold. 28. Nxd5?! exd5 29. Rxd5+ Ke8!

fen


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Now what? This is a spoiler.

May-02-08  Whitehat1963: Looks like I found a pretty good puzzle after all, then. So it turned out to be a spoiler, oh well. It's still pretty the way it turned out.
May-02-08  zb2cr: Well thanks, <chessgames.com>. I considered both 28. Nxd5 and 28. Rxd5. After almost half an hour of grueling analysis, I was unable to get either of them to work, largely because I couldn't find a good follow-up for either against best play.

I finally decided on 28. Qa5.

May-02-08  Whitehat1963: <saw the whole thing. was too easy lol>

"Nameless" rhymes with .... Oh, never mind!

May-02-08  Yodaman: What can white do if black does 30...Kc8?
May-02-08  Yodaman: Scratch my last comment. It's 31.d5xc5 and the queen is pinned and dead with a white able to mate.
May-02-08  mworld: So i saw NxC6 as the first move threatening the same fork on the queen if black takes whites queen, with the difference being two pawns additional compensation....

however, im sure im missing something?

May-02-08  mworld: and i see what im missing now :) KxNc6 doh
May-02-08  wals: Wow! I was so busy reading all the late posts in the last puzzle's kibitzes that I nearly forgot about this one. Fascinating stuff.

Yes, well, after trying to arrive at a candidate move I was that confused that I threw in the towel. Just too tough for me.
I thought of Nxd5 but considered Qxa4 too important to ignore, not realising that Nd5-b6+, wins the Queen and gives a strong game.

Fritz 11, as usual, has its own ideas.

Vladimiro Pina - Duarte Duarte, Open Lisbon 2001

Analysis by Fritz 11: depth 19/41 time 7min 45

1. (0.66): 28.Qa4-a5 Kd7-e8 29.Rf3-a3 c5-c4 30.Nf4-h5 Rh8-g8 31.f2-f4 Qc6-b7 32.Qa5-a4+ Ke8-f8 33.Ra3-g3 Ra8-b8 34.Qa4-a3 Kf8-e8 35.c2-c3 Ne7-c6 36.Rd1-d2 Qb7-b5

2. (0.57): 28.Qa4-a3 Kd7-e8 29.Rf3-c3 c5-c4 30.Rc3-f3 Ra8-b8 31.c2-c3 Qc6-b6 32.Rf3-e3 Ne7-c6 33.Kb1-a1 Qb6-a5 34.Qa3-d6 Qa5-a4 35.Rd1-d2 a6-a5

(, 03.05.2008)

May-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: The usual Mom-and-Pop Toga II 1.3.1 evaluation to 17 plies of the puzzle position is

[ply 17/60, time 07:20, value +0.48]

28.Qa3 Ke8 29.h5 Rg8 30.Rc3 c4 31.Ne2 Qb6 32.Nd4 Rb8 33.f4 Qb4 34.Qxb4 Rxb4 35.Rf3 Kd7 36.f5 Rgb8 37.fxe6+ fxe6

Toga evaluates the supposedly horrendous results of the sacrifice as

[ply 17/42, time 01:34, value -0.10]

28.Nxd5 exd5 29.<Rxd5> Ke8 30.Qxc6+ Nxc6 31.Rxc5 Nd4 32.Rd3 Ne6 33.Rc6 Ke7 34.Rdd6 Rhd8 35.Kc1 Rxd6 36.exd6+ Kd7 37.Rb6 Nf4 38.Rb7+ Kxd6 39.Rxf7 Ne6 40.Kd2

Although I would defer to those hombres wielding larger computers, I have to call this puzzle a "dud", rather than a "spoiler". The move 28.Nxd5 might not be the best, but it does not seem horrendous. According to Toga, it does not degrade a win into a draw or a draw into a loss.

May-02-08  Terry McCracken: < johnlspouge: The usual Mom-and-Pop According to Toga, it does not degrade a win into a draw or a draw into a loss.>

Well I would prefer Black, I don't believe White can win.

White could easily lose this and has to fight to draw. Ke8! is the spoiler.

May-02-08  Magic Castle: <TerryMcCracken> 30. Qc6 Nc5 31. Rc5 with 3 pawns for a Knight and a rook in the 7th rank in the offing. Since the black's h rook is imprisoned, more black pawns will fall. I think white has overwhelming advantage. Once the white pawns start rolling black will feel the pressure. In actual game, black will be consuming more time saving his Knight from the 2 rooks and pawn superiority. Try play it out with a friend and handle black after 31. Rc5 and see what I mean.
May-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<Terry McCracken> wrote: Well I would prefer Black, I don't believe White can win.>

In Schlosser vs NN, 1940, you argued that your choice between two possible candidates 11.Qc4 and 11.Qb5 depended on whether you thought your opponent would fall for a trap. Here, the move 28.Nxd5 was tricky and gave Black a chance to fall into a trap - and the trap <worked>. The move 28.Nxd5 is not best, but apparently, even in the worst sequela, it does not change the game's theoretical outcome - and as we saw - its practical chances were not nil.

Understand me, I do not wish to argue that 28.Nxd5 is a great move. Black is indeed slightly preferable, as you say, and so <a fortiori> (you bring out the Latin in me), White cannot force a win. Against best play, however, Toga says White could not have won the puzzle position either.

<<Magic Castle> wrote: [snip] I think white has overwhelming advantage. [snip]>

I have been itching to try out the phrase I heard somewhere: <the above statement is 100% incorrect IMHO>. To remain in character, however, I merely point out that Toga disagrees with you.

May-02-08  kingsindian2006: this is a nice puzzle !! the position sparks up good discussion.....
May-02-08  Terry McCracken: < johnlspouge: <<Terry McCracken> wrote: Well I would prefer Black, I don't believe White can win.> In Schlosser vs NN, 1940, you argued that your choice between two possible candidates 11.Qc4 and 11.Qb5 depended on whether you thought your opponent would fall for a trap. Here, the move 28.Nxd5 was tricky and gave Black a chance to fall into a trap - and the trap <worked>. >

I don't see this as an arguement as Qc4 and Qb5 both win a piece and the game.

This is not the case with Nxd5?!

I would say Nxd5 is "only" a trap and White got lucky.

May-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <I would say Nxd5 is "only" a trap and White got lucky.>

So would I, but you are still choosing to overlook my point that White did not begin with a winning position here. I put the same point you did in Schlosser vs NN, 1940: White loses little by trying the trap.

May-02-08  Terry McCracken: < Magic Castle: <TerryMcCracken> 30. Qc6 Nc5 31. Rc5 with 3 pawns for a Knight and a rook in the 7th rank in the offing. Since the black's h rook is imprisoned, more black pawns will fall. I think white has overwhelming advantage. Once the white pawns start rolling black will feel the pressure. In actual game, black will be consuming more time saving his Knight from the 2 rooks and pawn superiority. Try play it out with a friend and handle black after 31. Rc5 and see what I mean.>

I've played these positions many, many times. No question I'd take Black.

You are overestimating the pawns and underestimating Black's extra piece.

May-02-08  znprdx: 28.Nxd5
I> Qx[Q]a4 29.Nb6+
II> Nx[N]d5? 29. Rxf7+
II>e6x[N] 29.Rxd5+ Nx[R]d5
30. Rf7+
May-02-08  Terry McCracken: johnlspouge: <I would say Nxd5 is "only" a trap and White got lucky.> <So would I, but you are still choosing to overlook my point that White did not begin with a winning position here. I put the same point you did in Schlosser vs NN, 1940: White loses little by trying the trap.>

Apples and Oranges...Yes Black blundered into a trap, but this puzzle was presented after the blunder, not before as in this case.

There's little point defending this "position";)

Terry

May-03-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: An odd series of forcing moves. Pins,fork threats,and other maneuvers highlight this one. The pawn is first captured-then the remainder of black's position is chipped away.
May-03-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: I found this solution very quickly, so its not surprising that its flawed. However it shows that even semi-correct sacrifices will often succeed, especially at lower levels.
May-05-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For the May 2, 2008 puzzle solution, the move 28. Nxd5!? was intended to initiate a clever series of forcing deflections to remove the guard of the Queen and win decisive material or mate as follows in the final position.

However, as <Terry McCracken> indicates, the strong defensive move 28...Ke8! appears to turn the tables and holds for Black. So, it may be that 28. Qa4 or 28. Qa3, as analyzed in <wals>'s and <johnlspouge>'s posts are actually stronger.

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