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Mar-03-06
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| YouRang: I sort of got it -- there was one line I didn't figure out, but I did see the line that was played. In looking for tactical opportunities, I noticed fairly quickly the potential for a knight fork at d5. The c6 pawn isn't really protecting d5 because of white's Q+R battery on the c file. To make it work, I must (1) remove the other defenders of d5 and (2) decoy the king to e7 (which makes the knight fork the black K and Q). It didn't take too long to find the proper sequence: Deflect the f6 knight by taking the h7 knight, then deflect the e6 bishop by advancing the f4 pawn to f5. Finally, decoy the king to e7 by taking the e7 bishop. NOW the knight for seen earlier will work! This reasoning shows the difference between the way humans play chess and the way computers play chess: Humans often see a 'potential' tactic, and work backwards to find a way to deploy it. Computers always work forward, looking and millions of moves before they stumble across the sequence seen by the human. BTW, the line I didn't figure out was black's 19...Bxh4, but I figured that (at worst) white had nothing to lose. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| JustAFish: I got it in _mango_. This was a really _gassy_ for a _proterozoic_ puzzle. If this position happened OTB then it would _nauseating_ to solve. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| JustAFish: I had trouble finding the solution to this one because after 19 f5 I saw ... Bxh4 as a possibility followed by 20. fxe6 f6. Seeing that the white knight could then go to f7 and win a piece or the exchange was tricky. It took a while to see that castling on move 20 was out of the question for black. Even so, I think the bxh4 line holds more practical chances than the line that was actually played. |
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Mar-03-06
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| dakgootje: Wont annoy you guys with an other story of how i got or missed the puzzle, just going short: Both looked at the Bxh7 as the Nxd5 idea, but wasnt able to combine them -.- |
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Mar-03-06
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| patzer2: <Hayton 3: Now we all know the answer don't we?> Well my answer is to "blow the whistle" on those who make personal attacks and flagrantly violate the posting guidelines. Resorting to invective and ad hominen attacks reflects neither intelligence or humor, but says a lot about one's character. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| mikejaqua: Reposting my query in hopes that someone will respond. Would black have done better to take the bishop with his rook after 18 Bxh7 ? |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| hayton3: <patzer2> <Well my answer is to "blow the whistle" on those who make personal attacks and flagrantly violate the posting guidelines.> Don't be a child - there is no evidence of this whatsoever. |
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Mar-03-06
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| patzer2: <hayton3: there is no evidence of this whatsoever.> Chessgames.com determined there was evidence when they deleted several of your recent posts which I reported. I don't know if you've studied formal logic, but the ad hominen (attack on a person), per http://changingminds.org/discipline...,
includes an attack on their expertise and judgment. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| unferth: <mbt123au: why didn't black play it out. surely his position wasn't that bad that he couldn't fight it out. there was still enough pieces there to have a go. i would have taken the knight with the pawn...in the end the difference was a knight for a rook> after
21 ... cxd5
22 Qxc7 Rxc7
23 Rxc7
Black has to defend the pinned B with Rd8 or Nf6; in either case, the b pawn will fall, and the a pawn soon after. White's uncontested passers on the a & b files, R on the 7th & material edge are overwhelming. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| gchristopher: Yes, I am way late. Yes, I got the exploitation of the black c-pawn combo. But I need help finding out what's wrong for black with this following line:
19. f5 Bxh4 20. fxe6 f6 21. Nf3 (or any other box) Bg3. This way white has a very weak e6-pawn and I really don't see what I'm missing for black. Plus, and final, even as mad as taking the white f-pawn with the black bishop makes more sense than playing into the black-c-pawn-pin-plus-fork. Didn't black just play into white's hands? This is my instinct talking, no Fritz, no friend analyzing next to me. Just sheer five-minute-game experience. Any kind souls still out there? . |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| unferth: <gchristopher> just at a glance, I'd say after 19. f5 Bxh4 20. fxe6 f6, 21 Qg6+ looks awfully evil for black. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| gchristopher: Never mind. White's center knight has the g6 box. Not that he'll make it out from there, but I got it. Still, I would have let white double queen and rook on the f-column. With the queen defending f7 I think black can afford it until castling. |
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Mar-03-06
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| dzechiel: <gchristopher> I think the best line is 21  g6+  d8 22  f7+ e8 23 d6+ d8 24 e8+  xe8 25 f7#. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| unferth: <dzechiel>after 21 Qg6+ Kd8, 22 Nxd5 is death, isn't it? |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| unferth: <dzechiel> I don't think your line is mate? after 25 Nf7+, doesn't black have either Ke7 or Qxf7?
or do I have the position wrong? |
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Mar-03-06
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| dzechiel: <unferth> You are quite right. I forgot that the black bishop had captured on h4. I really need to set these positions up before posting. :) Thanks for keeping me honest. DZ |
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Mar-03-06
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| aazqua: Qg6+ takes care of the Bh4 lines. This is really abysmal by black. The obvious o-o at move 11 or 14 would avoid the blowout loss. This is one of those puzzles where even though there is a lot of material lying around, there is an obvious smoking gun - n*d5. It's clear that the pawn isn't defending that square, that the bishop will be forced to retreat from a pawn advance, and that the bishops take care of the knights. Put all the elements together and you have the gain of at least a pawn, although black's brilliant play made the loss even graver. Thorfinnson looks like a real duffer. |
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Mar-03-06
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| al wazir: <ckr, eaglewing, gawain, patzer2>: Thanks for looking at the line I asked about (19...Bxh4) and posting your analysis. I conclude that (a) 19...Bxh4 doesn't save black; (b) It's pretty complicated--my analysis was incomplete, and partly wrong as well; (c) This puzzle skunked me. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| MatrixManNe0: <JustAFish> I can honestly say I laughed out loud when I read your first post there. Several times in fact. In short bursts. To the point that my brother though I was going crazy over this chess puzzle.
I can honestly say I missed it also. Saw the main idea of deflection (or decoy, whichever; I haven't been playing for a while. Sue me.). I missed the removal of the light bishop via pawn push. Sad. Anyway, I just had to sign in to post that I laughed out loud. I needed a good laugh. "Given that [I was banging my head against a wall], my rating is down to [2999001], and yet I solved it in [6] NANOseconds." |
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Mar-03-06
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| al wazir: <hayton3>: <patzer2> posts the best analysis at this site. Lighten up. |
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| Mar-03-06 |
| blingice: Yeah, <hayton3>, sure, <patzer2> isn't the only person with Fritz, but he is the only one posting the analysis of the computer, and he's doing a service so we don't have to open up Fritz, plug in a position or game or whatever, and take the time to analyze as many lines as he does. |
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| Mar-04-06 |
| MatrixManNe0: <mikejaqua> 18... Rxh7 would lead to 19. Bxf6 g(orB)xf6 20. Qxf6 f(orB)xe5 and white is up the exchange not to mention the gaping hole in black's kingside. |
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| Mar-06-06 |
| mikejaqua: <MatrixManNeo> Losing the exchange was what I thought would happen. Just figured it beat losing the queen. |
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Mar-08-06
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| YouRang: <Cogano> You asked my about this game in my forum. I thought it would be best to post the answer here. You asked: <I want to ask about the H Olafsson vs B Thorfinnsson, 2001 game. You said that the c6-pawn isn't really protecting d5 because of White' Q+R battery. But Black also has a battery on the same file. & after the c-6 pawn captures the knight on d5, if the White Q takes Black's on c7, Black comes out on top!> The way I see it, after 18. Nxd5 cxd5 19. Qxc7 Rxc7 20. Rxc7, and white has captured black's P+Q+R in exchange for white's N+Q. <Also, I wonder if you'd be good enough to clarify to me why is Nd5+ good for White...> Well, the point I was trying to make is that Nxd5 is a *potential* tactic. It isn't good for white YET, because d5 is protected by black's bishop at e5 and by black's knight at f5. Also, it doesn't really work unless we can lure the king to d7 (so that Nxd5 forks the K+Q). So now the question becomes: "can I eliminate both defenders of d5 AND lure the king to d7"? After a little consideration, we see that the answer is "yes", as follows: 18. Bxh7! Nxh7 - there goes the f5 knight!
(Black could have played 18...Rxh7, but that allows 19. Bxf5 followed by Qxh7, winning a full rook.) 19. f5! Bd7 - there goes the e5 bishop!
20. Bxe7! Kxe7 - the king has been lured to e7!
And NOW we can play 21. Nxd5+, forking the king and queen! If 21...cxd5, then 22. Qxc7 Rxc7 23. Rxc7, as discussed above. White has material gain and a sustained attack. Often in chess, impressive combinations are developed this way. Instead of seeing the entire 5-move combination at once, you find a potential 2-move combination, and then you find a series of 3 moves that "set up" your 2-move combination. (This is a great example of how people think differently than computers. A computer may find this 5-move combination, but it must start with Qxh7 and exploring all the possibilities, etc.) I hope this clarifies my earlier post. |
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| Mar-08-06 |
| Cogano: Hello again <YouRang> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify the
position & the tactical combo to me. & yes, you explained it so clearly. Thank
you again. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers! :) |
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