| Nov-17-03 |
| hickchess99: doesn't 15. Nd5+ also win? |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: The final position is instructive in determining the various mates after each of black's four 18th move possibilities: 18...Kh3 19. Rxh6#
18...Kg4 19. Rg6+ Kh5 (if 19... Kf3 20. Qg4#) 20. Qg4# 18...Kh5 19. Qf7+ Kg5 (if 19...Kg4 20. Qf4+ Kh5 21. Qh4#) 20. Qf4+ Kh5 21. Qh4# 18...Kg5 19. f4+ (if 19...Kh5 20. Qd1# and if 19...Kf3 20. Qd3#) 19...Kg4 20. Rg6+ Kh5 21. Qg4# |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: <hickchess99> You are correct that 15. Nd5+ also wins. Fritz 8 analyzes 15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nf6+ Bd6 17. Qg4 Qf5 18. Qg7 Rh7 19. Nxh7 Kc8 20. Nf6 Be7 21. Qh8+ Nd8 22. Ne4 (+2.59 @ 13/50 depth & 732kN/s). |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: In addition to 17. h4+ Kh5 18. Qd1+ Kxh4 19. Re4+ Kg5 20. Qg4+ (#6), white has four other winning 17th move options per Fritz 8 (@ 12/41 depth & 717kN/s): 17. f4+ Kh5 18. Qd1+ Kh4 19. g3+ Kh3 20. Qd7 (#6)
17. Qf7 Rg8 18. Qxg8+ (#9)
17. Qd3 Qa3 18. Qg6+ (#9)
17. g3 Qf5 18. h4+ Kh5 19. Qd1+ Qg4 20. Qd5+ Ne5 21. Qxe5+ Qg5 22. Qe2+ Qg4 23. Re5+ Kg6 24. Qxg4+ Kh7 25. Qe4+ Kg7 26. Re6 Rh7 (+14.59) |
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| Nov-17-03 |
| chankins: patzer2, 15.Nd5+ Kd8; 16.Nf6+ Ke7 goes nowhere. A computer like Fritz may find Bd6 objectively better but if white can't find the correct plan with Qd7+ then Ke7 is best. |
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| Nov-17-03 |
| Jack21221: After 18...Kh3, there are 12 possible mates. Well, after the queen throws a quick block unprotected, anyway. That's pretty fun. |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: <chankins> You are correct that 15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nf6+ Ke7 leads to nothing but a repetition of the position if black does not play 16...Bd6. I suppose Fritz assumed best play by black in avoiding mate with 16...Bd6 instead of allowing it after 16...Ke7 17. Qd7+ (e.g. the longest 9 move mating variation, with numerous shorter or equal subvariations, is 16... Ke7 17. Qd7+ Kxf6 18. Rxe6+ Kf5 19. Qf7+ Kg4 20. Re4+ Kg5 21. f4+ Kg4 22. f5+ Kg5 23. Qg6#). So, of course you are absolutlely right that with "best play" white's choice should be to go for the mate right away with 15. Qd7+ and not waste moves with 15. Nd5+, unless perhaps white is concerned early with trying to accumulate moves toward reaching the 40 move time control and has not yet calculated all the way to checkmate after 15. Qd7+ or wants to see if black will avoid 16...Ke7 and fall into the winning variation Frisk calculated with 16...Bd6 (which may be easier to calculate at first glance for some players). |
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| Nov-17-03 |
| myratingstinks: I need to change my name to myratingisntallthatgood because I think chessgames.com is improving my game. |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: If 18...Kg5 19. f4+ Kf5, then 20. Rxh6+ Ke4 21. Qd3#. |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: An interesting mating possibility after 16...Kg5 is 17. Qf7! Qf5 18. h4+ Kg4 (if 18...Kf4 19. Rae1 Ne5 20. R6xe5 Kg4 21. Qxf5+ Kxh4 22. R1e4# or 18...Kf4 19. g3+ Kg4 20. Rg6+ Qg5 21. Kg2 Ne5 22. f3+ Kh5 23. Rxg5#) and white can now mate two ways +- (#4) 19. Rg6+ Qxg6 20. Qxg6+ Kf4 (if 20... Kxh4 21. g3+ Kh3 22. Qh4#) 21. Re1 Bg7 22. Qe4# (or 22. Re4#). +- (#6) 19. f3+ Kg3 (if 19...Kf4 20. Re4+ is #4) 20. Rg6+ Qg5 21. Qxc7+ Bd6 22. Qxd6+ Ne5 23. Qxe5+ Kxh4 24. Qh2# |
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Nov-17-03
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| talchess2003: <You are correct that 15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nf6+ Ke7 leads to nothing but a repetition of the position> 15. Nd5+ is winning.. Here's my analysis:
15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nb6+ and now both 16. Kc8 and Ke8 lead to an immediate mate, and if black moves Ke7 then the king will be voyaging into the same squares as in the game. 15... Kf6 16. Qf3+ Qg8 17. Qg5+ Bg7 18. Qxe6+ Kf8 (18.. Kg8 19. Qf7 h5 20. Nf6+ Kh6 21. Ng4+ hxg4 22. Re6+ Kg5 23. Qxg7+ Kf5 24. Qf7+ and the game will end in a similiar voyage by the king) 19. Qf5+ Kg8 20. Ne7+! Good Game. An interesting line is 15.. Ke8 but after 16. b4! Qa4 (16.. Qa6 17. b5! or 16.. Nxb4 17. Nxb4 Qxb4 18. Rxe6+ Kf7 19. Qd7+ 1-0) 17. Nxc7+ Kf7 18. Qd7+ Kg8 19. Rxe6 and its all over I agree that if you can mate a guy two ways, it is best to go with the easiest way since in tournament play there are time controls... but don't disregard Nd5+ it is a winning move! |
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Nov-17-03
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| patzer2: <talchess2003> Appreciate your attempt to revive 15. Nd5+! You had me convinced till I plugged 15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nb6+ into Fritz 8 for analysis. Bottom line is that this sequence gives white slightly better than equality, but it is unclear whether it gives anything more. Fritz 8 analyzes 15. Nd5+ Kd8 16. Nb6+ Bd6 17. Nxa8 Kc8 18. Rxe6 Kb8 19. Nxc7 Bxc7 20. Qe2 Rd8 21. Re8 Bf4 22. Rxd8+ Qxd8 = (+0.22 @ 13/52 depth & 754kN/s). If white can exchange off the queens in the analyzed position, the white kingside pawn majority looks imposing in the end game. So, the analyzed position may offer white better than equality, but the best I can see is an unclear position with chances for both sides in the middle game and a possible end game advantage for white if he can force an ending. Note: I'm beginning to mistrust some of Fritz's analysis of equality since the debacle by Fritz X3D against Kasparov yesterday. |
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Nov-17-03
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| crafty: 15.  d5+  d8 16. b6+  d6 17. xa8  f5 18. c4 e7  (eval 1.13; depth 13 ply; 750M nodes) |
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| Jun-03-04 |
| jsastre48: Masterfully conducted attack exploiting the gaines of time that the gambit allows! |
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| May-13-05 |
| mirunik: what about 14. ... kxf6 !? and i can't find nothing for white ???? can you give me some variants ???? |
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| Jul-02-09 |
| sneaky pete: Can any of you Fritz-fiends answer <mirunik>s question after 4 years? Anyway, it's irrelevant really. Every Russian schoolboy (except Kapengut) knows that, instead of the premature 14.Nxe6 .., white should play 14.b4 .. first. |
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