< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Mar-04-08|| ||Magic Castle: <MaxxLange>< zb2cr> This is the first time I have read that under this variations white capturing by 5. Nf7 gaining the exchange will give black a vicious attack. I am really interested to know the lines of the vicious attack because in the many games of this variations so far that I saw, I have not seen one Grndmaster allowed it in the games I have seen so far.|
|Mar-04-08|| ||zooter: <Magic Castle: <MaxxLange>< zb2cr> This is the first time I have read that under this variations white capturing by 5. Nf7 gaining the exchange will give black a vicious attack. I am really interested to know the lines of the vicious attack because in the many games of this variations so far that I saw, I have not seen one Grndmaster allowed it in the games I have seen so far.>|
I can double that Nxf7 leads to an attack by black and Bxe7 is the correct line. I've read this in some opening books and will try to whip out one if possible
|Mar-04-08|| ||MaxxLange: One thing I always liked about Fritz is the "Insert Null Move" feature, where you can analyze what a player could do if it can move twice in a row.|
I have heard it said that with the chess technique and knowledge of today, a 2200 player could beat the World Champion (at least in a sharp position) if he got to choose a point in the game to make two moves in a row
|Mar-04-08|| ||whiteshark: <MaxxLange <if he got to choose a point in the game to make two moves in a row>>|
But that makes it hard, if not impossible for proper calculation. Imagine you play ♕x♕ in the first move and retreat your ♕ in the second move (instead of an exchange).
But of course, the first move shouldn't be a check. :D
|Mar-04-08|| ||Funicular: ahahahhahah it took me barely a quarter of a sec, just because i saw the black king on e7 :D:D|
this a rather common attacking pattern for me (Usually a pawn on g3, ie doing the knights work) but then i saw g4 en prise and said "This must be it"
|Mar-04-08|| ||keypusher: <magic castle>
The main line after 5. Nxf7 is 5...Bxf2+ and if 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qh4
See on this page for an example from gameknot: Two Knights (C57)
|Mar-04-08|| ||kinggambits: I think 4..d5 is better
After 4 ..Bc5 I think 5 Bxf7 seems correct to me for white bcoz after 5 Nxf7 black plays 5..Bxf2+ 6 Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 Qh4 etc giving a strong counter attack for black.
In the line 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bb3 Rf8 white keeps the pawn and black has lost the castling
Also as in this game 6..d6 is a suspect as it allows Nf7 then maybe 7..Qf8 8.f3 etc white still has the pawn
|Mar-04-08|| ||zooter: as promised, HERE'S what crafty thinks about 11...Rh8|
The best defense for White seems to be making his king travel all the way upto a5 with a -2.50 score!!!!
12. g3 Rh6 13. Kg2 Qh8 14. Kf3 Rh2 15. Ke2 Nxg4 16. Kd3 Bxf2 17. Qd1 Qh3 18. Bd5 Rf8 19. Kc4 Na5+ 20. Kb5 c6+ 21. Ka4 cxd5 22. Kxa5 dxe4 crafty-22.0-win32 : -2.49. Depth: 18. ♘odes: 5306.4 M
|Mar-04-08|| ||YouRang: It's always impressive when you can sac a rook just to gain a tempo (i.e. the opportunity to bring your queen into the attack *with check*. |
It's also impressive when you can make a "mating setup" move, like ...Nxg4, observing that your opponent, despite having a move to work with, can do nothing to save himself.
So, I guess this puzzle is double-impressive. :-)
|Mar-04-08|| ||DarthStapler: Got it, white only has a few spite checks|
|Mar-04-08|| ||MiCrooks: The nice thing about the Wilkes-Barre variation is that it tends to take White out of his comfort zone. By playing Ng5?! (if anything is a minor blunder this is) he announces his intentions to play all out for the attack. Black has a number of options. Best might be allowing the "Fried Liver" attack as long as Black is well versed in it, but this gives White what he wants - a vicious attack.|
The other two main options (Wilkes-Barre with Bc5 and whatever you call the pawn sack lines with c6) both lead to games in which play is either wild for both sides (WB) or White is put on the defensive in return for a pawn. Both are considered okay for Black and over the board I would definitely go into one of those just to throw White for a loop.
|Mar-04-08|| ||wals: Noting think:= no pussyfooting around with easy, obvious, natural moves but going for the throat with
flint=eyed, downtoearth, written in concrete, clear, calculated, rational moves. E&OE.
Look at board =
Possible Rh1+ Kxh1 Qh8+ Kg1 Nxg4 f3 Qh2#
You little ripper
brain score L 0.50 R 0.50
|Mar-04-08|| ||zb2cr: <Magic Castle>, as to the variation if 4. ... Bc5; 5. Nxf7, see this game:|
J Reinisch vs Traxler, 1890
particularly the note after White's 6th move.
|Mar-04-08|| ||zb2cr: <Magic Castle>, See the kibitzing in the previous game, especially <Honza Cervenka>, who is a far stronger player than I, stating that 5. Nxf7 allows Black a strong attack. See also the game:|
Mikisa vs Traxler, 1896
|Mar-04-08|| ||Aurora: He who does not advance, falls back.|
|Mar-04-08|| ||MaczynskiPratten: The Wiilkes-Barre/Traxler is quite possibly the wildest and weirdest set of opening lines in chess. Highly entertaining though! There were 2 paperback books published on it in the 1980's, drawing heavily on correspondence chess games, even these contradict each other completely at times in their assessment of lines! It would be very interesting to see what a really powerful modern engine came up with. Although 5 Nxf7 looks so tempting, experience is that Black's attack is so strong that 5 Bxf7 is preferable, especially OTB when one slight slip can be curtains for either player.|
|Mar-04-08|| ||SAINTAMANT: Wow!! What a combination!! Black needs and gain a tempo by 12..Rh1!!
13.KXR Qh8++!! 14.Kg1 NxP!!
Black has no response to the mating threat....
|Mar-04-08|| ||012: Monday puzzle <19. ?> Mar-03-08 Spielmann vs M Walter, 1928|
|Mar-04-08|| ||zooter: well, the position after 11...Rh8 is certainly lost for white but by no means very clear. Here is what Crafty has to say after many hours analysis|
12. g3 Rh7 13. Kg2 Qh8 14. Rh1 Nxg4 15. Rxh7 Qxh7 16. d4 Qh2+ 17. Kf1 Rf8 18. Bxg5+ Kd7 19. Ke2 exd4 20. Bf4 Nxf2 21. Kd2 Nh3+ 22. Kc1 Nxf4 23. gxf4 Qxf4+ crafty-22.0-win32 : -2.99. Depth: 20. ♘odes: 60361.3 M
|Mar-04-08|| ||karibola: How does the The Wilkes-Barre Variation continue after 5. Nxf7 5. Bxb2+ 6. Kf1. It seems obvious that Kxf2 is bad for white after what has been previously posted, but how can black win after 6 Kf1?|
|Mar-04-08|| ||ForeverYoung: The reason some may miss solving this puzzle is that normally the White queen is not on e1 thus preventing the normal escape move Re1 and the usual impulse is to look for that move to handle the mate threat on h2.|
|Mar-05-08|| ||zb2cr: <karibola>,
After 6...Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5
8.exd5 Nd4 Black gets a strong attack.
|Mar-05-08|| ||zb2cr: <Karibola>,
Mikisa vs Traxler, 1896
for an example.
|Mar-05-08|| ||kevin86: The key piece here is the white queen. After black's final move,the said queen blocks the freeing move, ♖e1. Mate is inescapable.|
|Mar-08-08|| ||zanshin: <znprdx, JG27Pyth, MaxxLange, and zb2cr> Thanks for educating me on the Traxler Counter Attack. It looks to me like one of those early gambit lines you can play against weaker opponents. I don't think it is sound. Anyway, further info on this amusing line is here:|
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