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Paul Morphy vs Thomas Jefferson Bryan
"Giants Beat Patriots" (game of the day Feb-06-12)
New York (USA) (1859)  ·  Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Lasker Defense (000)  ·  1-0
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-06-12  drnooo: If Morphy has a decent sports counterpart, for me, it's always been Bobby Jones. It's always a guess just how Jones would have fared over the long haul: but his Grand Slam in golf, his remaining an amateur, those who still claim him as the best ever. At 14 he could drive the ball 250 yards, hardly the bullet ball they have these days: nor with the current clubs: a true genius that beat everybody on the planet, then retired from competition...and became a lawyer. Like Morphy. Except of course with Morphy, his lawyer-dome was an utter failure.
Feb-06-12  Rook e2: <BlackSheep: I love Morphy's games he was so far ahead of his contemporaries I think he should be considered to be the best player who has ever lived (not everyones opinion obviously)> I really love his games too, but doubt he would beat Steinitz to begin with.

<ninja warrior: In general there is something puzzling about the fact that the most renowned figures in chess - Morphy, Pillsbury, Capablanca and Fischer - were born in America. ~ Garry Kasparov>

Now there are two ways to interperate that. Hope you see the second.

Feb-06-12  goodevans: <ninja warrior> I'm dubious about Garry's grasp of geography (or history). Capablanca was born in Cuba.

Now I know that Cuba has had a complicated history which included being a dependency of the US for a while, but as far as I can tell Capablanca was born there when Cuba was still Spanish.

Also, I'm not sure what Steinitz and Alekhine would have thought of being omitted from that list.

Feb-06-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Shams: <I'm dubious about Garry's grasp of geography (or history). Capablanca was born in Cuba.>

Well, he meant "The Americas". By comparison to his ideas about history (to which you allude) this is Gazza being precise, no?

His compliment to Pillsbury is what sticks out the most.

Feb-06-12  BlackSheep: <Rook e2> Well since we are using opinions here its hard to use facts but a little indicator that can surely be looked at is their respective records against Adolf Andersson , Steinitz has a record of 11 wins and 11 losses whilst Morphy has a record of 12 wins and 3 losses . Now I know this is not conclusive evidence but Morphy only stood to get stronger if he pursued a career in chess and as <ninja warrior> has already pointed out Fischer also held the opinion that Morphy would have "beat anyone alive today" in his era , so I think he included Steinitz right there and his opinion is probably more valid than either mine or yours .
Feb-06-12  lionel15: I too love to play through Morphy's games.
Feb-06-12  AVRO38: <goodevans><I'm dubious about Garry's grasp of geography (or history). Capablanca was born in Cuba.>

Cuba is part of America. Garry never said "United States of America." Looks like you are the one who needs to brush up on geography and not be so quick to judge others.

<BlackSheep><Well since we are using opinions here its hard to use facts but a little indicator that can surely be looked at is their respective records against Adolf Andersson , Steinitz has a record of 11 wins and 11 losses whilst Morphy has a record of 12 wins and 3 losses .>

I'd also add their matches against Bird. Steinitz-Bird match 9.5 - 7.5, Morphy-Bird match 10.5 - 1.5. Bottom line is Morphy would blow Steinitz out of the water.

<A popularly held theory about Paul Morphy is that if he returned to the chess world today and played our best contemporary players, he would come out the loser. Nothing is further from the truth. In a set match, Morphy would beat anybody alive today ... - Bobby Fischer>

I agree 100%.

Feb-06-12  Tigranny: Giants win Super Bowl XLVI!
Feb-06-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Chess for life: Shouldn't this be "Giant beats Patriot"?
Feb-06-12  BraveUlysses: Delightful game and a well-timed, clever pun.

Morphy is one of those players whose games it is always a delight to play through. You can feel his incisive, witty and lethal mind at work. It is so cool that we can all enjoy his brilliance after all this time.

If born at any time, I would contend he would be at the very top of the tree, assuming he could be bothered etc. His native genius places him as one of the half-dozen or so argued-about chess gods right at the rarefied summit of chessdom. (Most will agree about Kasparov, Fischer and Capa before the debate gets more heated)

Feb-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Shams: ... His compliment to Pillsbury is what sticks out the most.>

Indeed. Very august company. If poor Pillsbury hadn't gotten syphilis from a hooker in St. Petersburg he might well have been world champion.

Feb-07-12  galdur: Kasparov isnīt that far off. In 1888 Cuba was practically a U.S. vassal state.

<By 1877, the United States accounted for 83 percent of Cuba's total exports, and as a monopsonist, was able to control price and hence production levels closely.[5] It was during this period that English traveller Anthony Trollope observed that "The trade of the country is falling into the hands of foreigners, Havana will soon be as American as New Orleans".[6] North Americans were also increasingly taking up residence on the island, and some districts on the northern shore were said to have more the character of America than Spanish settlements. Between 1878 and 1898 American investors took advantage of deteriorating economic conditions of the Ten Years' War to take over estates they had tried unsuccessfully to buy before while others acquired properties at very low prices.[7] Above all this presence facilitated the integration of the Cuban economy into the North American system and weakened Cuba's ties with Spain.>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba-U...

Feb-07-12  goodevans: <AVRO38: <goodevans><I'm dubious about Garry's grasp of geography (or history). Capablanca was born in Cuba.>

Cuba is part of America. Garry never said "United States of America." Looks like you are the one who needs to brush up on geography ...>

When Kim Wilde sang "Kids in America" was she intending to include Cubans, Mexicans and the rest? How many people might reckon on Captain America being Panamanian or Venezualan?

Your somewhat offensive accusation just doesn't stack up. When people talk of America <singular, and without qualification as to North or South> then it's taken by most to mean the USA.

I think my grasp of geography is fine, thank you very much, and evidently better than yours. Perhaps it's you who should be less quick to judge.

Feb-07-12  King Death: <goodevans> Based on my three months here, that ain't gonna happen, <AVRO38>'s real quick on the draw and full of hot air and he needs to brush up on being decent to others.

You're right, the term "America" is normally used in the context you state.

Feb-07-12  Rook e2: <Feb-06-12 BlackSheep: <Rook e2> Well since we are using opinions here its hard to use facts but a little indicator that can surely be looked at is their respective records against Adolf Andersson , Steinitz has a record of 11 wins and 11 losses whilst Morphy has a record of 12 wins and 3 losses . Now I know this is not conclusive evidence but Morphy only stood to get stronger if he pursued a career in chess and as <ninja warrior> has already pointed out Fischer also held the opinion that Morphy would have "beat anyone alive today" in his era , so I think he included Steinitz right there and his opinion is probably more valid than either mine or yours . >

<I'd also add their matches against Bird. Steinitz-Bird match 9.5 - 7.5, Morphy-Bird match 10.5 - 1.5. Bottom line is Morphy would blow Steinitz out of the water.>

Morphy was something else, ofcourse, but I think a little nuance would be in it's place.. I didn't do my homework to compare scores against the same opponents but do you really think he would have beaten Capablanca, and the WC's after him (maybe Euwe)? Fisher said so, but Fisher said a lot of other things that we could -let's put it this way- take not so serious. And an opinion on a fellow countrymen should not always be seen as very objective.. Many Dutchman might for example not agree that Euwe was the less strongest World Champion.. (Is nuance also used as an English word? My translater sais so..)

Feb-07-12  King Death: <Rook e2> Among other things Fischer didn't even include Lasker in his list of 10 greatest players in 1964: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method...

In my opinion while Fischer was one of the 2-3 greatest players of all time he spouted off on a few things and it's best to take them with a grain of salt. The whole subject of "would Morphy have beaten any modern champion?" and so on can always be debated but I'm not going to waste time on it.

Feb-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  eternaloptimist: Nice smothered mate by morphy but it's obvious that Bryan wasn't that strong of a player. I am glad that the giants beat the patriots in the super bowl (twice now b/c the giants beat them in super bowl 42 back in '08) b/c the giants r my favorite team! Eli manning is my favorite football player.
Feb-07-12  Rook e2: <King Death:> I thought it was a nice discussion.. but it will always be without an answer obviously.. just opinions..
Feb-07-12  AVRO38: <goodevans><How many people might reckon on Captain America being Panamanian or Venezualan?

Your somewhat offensive accusation just doesn't stack up. When people talk of America <singular, and without qualification as to North or South> then it's taken by most to mean the USA.>

Yes, and most people think Abraham Lincoln lived in the Middle Ages. If your comfortable being in the company of idiots then it's probably because that's where you belong.

<I think my grasp of geography is fine, thank you very much, and evidently better than yours.>

Really? better than mine? You're the one that said Cuba is not part of America. Please point out the geographically inaccurate statement that I made that makes your grasp of geography 'better than mine.'

Feb-08-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Calm down, folks.
Jun-27-12  e4 resigns: <WhiteRook48: <JamesBJames> This kind of mate is called "Philidor's Legacy Mate". 19. Qa3+ Kg8 (If Ke8???????? Qe7#) 20. Ne7+ Kf8 21. Ng6+! Double check. >

It's a little late to give Ke8 a question mark, since he gets mated no matter what. Is there any analysis of this game?

May-31-13  expertattacker: In attempts like these, it would be glorious to loose:-?
May-31-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  SatelliteDan: Morphy was from another planet.
May-31-13  JPi: Which one?
May-31-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Shams: Paulderaan. Unfortunately now destroyed.
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