< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 14 OF 23 ·
|Nov-27-10|| ||Nightsurfer: It is a given fact that history does not repeat itself! True!! True!!?? Well, sometimes there are strange replays, at least on the chess board - just check out that strange case of SECOND COMING in Hamburg, Germany in 2008, thus exactly 150 years (!!!) after Morphy's thrilling "Night at the Opera" Paris 1858: R Gralla vs S Stojanovic, 2008 ... one could assume that the replay 150 years later has been a fake, but no way, the leader of Black army has unknowingly repeated nearly all the errors and blunders of his noble "brothers-in-arms" one and a half century before that fateful encounter! I know that for sure because I have been there, on that very April 25th, 2008, at midnight in that smoke-filled Serbian Café "Hamburg", no kidding!|
|Nov-27-10|| ||Nightsurfer: Hello Companero <Tigranny>, do I get it right, your assumption is that 6. ... Qf6!? would have been better than 6. ... Nf6?! Well, there have indeed been two tries to put 6. ... Qf6 on the board sometimes, once in Elmshorn, Germany in 1975, on the occasion of the Championship 1975/76 of the Elmshorn Chess Club (please see R Gralla vs H Kroeger, 1975), and the second one 35 years later during the Chess Olympiad (Women) at Khanty-Mansiysk, Russia in 2010, please compare Ana Margarida Ferreira vs Miyanda Mweetwa, 2010). But the final result was always the same: Black lost no matter how hard she and/or he tried!|
|Nov-30-10|| ||RoseQueen: I just wanna comment and say that that 8.Nc3 is wayyyyyyyy stronger than 8.Qxb7. Not to sound offensive, but Qxb7 is straight up, a patzer's move. Only a patzer would give up white's initiative for winning a pawn. In chess, rapid development is stronger that going pawn haunting with the queen which is what most weak players are drawn to. They see winning a pawn as more important that maintaing a superior position or keeping the initiative.The annotators aren't "skipping" past that move because it's "less than perfect". they simply don't comment on it because it's pretty obvious to anyone over 1600 that a strong developing move is better than taking a pawn and allowing a queen trade and killing all your initiative.|
|Nov-30-10|| ||micartouse: <RoseQueen> I don't agree with much of your post. What do we say about all the French, Sicilian, and Scotch variations where there are main lines based on pawn grabbing with the queen while lagging in development? World champions play these openings, so I think you're oversimplifying to say it is always a patzer concept - in chess, principles have exceptions.|
Regarding the famous 8th move which indeed is the subject of adulation in instruction books, Qxb7 is not the only alternative being discussed above.
A paradox I enjoy about this game is that the critics use it as an example of the importance of rapid development. However, Black's huge mistake 3 ... Bg4 is a rapid development move, and by the time Black is dead lost, he has committed no development sins! And its refutation is not a development move (such as Be3) but rather a pawn trade, early queen deployment, and a second queen maneuver. Morphy does indeed develop rapidly in all moves beginning with the 8th move, and critics say the game demonstrates the importance of rapid development!
Let's question the conventional wisdom - it's probably more truthful to say the game demonstrates the importance of having outstanding talent.
|Dec-01-10|| ||RoseQueen: ^ I understand what you are saying but we aren't talking about the French, Sicilian, or Scott. In those openings there is usually a very good reason to go for the pawn, like in the poisoned pawn variation of the Sicilian, it is very difficult for white to generate counter play against black who is behind in development. I agree that not there isnt a single general chess rule that works all the time, but in the Morphy game, 8.Qxb7 is a bad move, not because the move is bad itself, but because white has better. After 8.Nc3, black is already in trouble. He has lost the bishop pair in an open position, his queen is blocking the f8 bishop, and the pawn on c6 stops the knight from going to it's natural post. White already has a great initiative and he cashes in way too early by playing 8.Qxb7. After he does that black can trade queens and struggle on a pawn down and drag the game on forever. Why let him do that? As white, you should be playing to win and maintain an advantage, not settle for less.|
|Dec-01-10|| ||RoseQueen: By the way, to the people that think that black can save himself by playing 6...Qf6 offering a queen trade, the same blow follows. 7.Qb3 keeps the queens on the board, and forces black to defend the b7 pawn, while white develops quickly and has a natural attacking plan. Once black plays 3...Bg4, he is already in a worst position. I have analysis that proves white wins in ALL lines, and that black cannot save himself with out losing material.With best play black just merely drags the game on, but is always worst.|
|Dec-07-10|| ||Nightsurfer: Hello <RoseQueen>, practice shows that your assessment of the try 6. ... Qf6 - namely: 6. ... Qf6 will effectively be countered with 7.Qb3! ... - is state of the art. Herewith one example: R Gralla vs H Kroeger, 1975, Black will be forced to resign before move no. 20!|
|Dec-08-10|| ||RoseQueen: ^ thank you. I have a 100% win record against 3...Bg4. That move loses the game by force. In my opinion, outside of weird chess openings like the drunken king, the 3...Bg4 variation of the Philidor is one of the worst positional blunders there is in chess openings. Black loses no matter what. I find it amazing that a game can be lost on the third move, but the initiative white gets afterward is too much for black handle. The only reason why I posted was just to address the erroneous comments suggesting that white should settle for the win of a pawn instead of developing. That just shows a clear lack of understanding on how to maintain the initiative, even more insulting, is people suggesting that the pawn grab is the perfect move missed by Morphy. People who think winning a pawn with white is worth losing the initiative shouldn't be allowed to comment.|
|Dec-26-10|| ||Wayne Proudlove: Maybe the Duke and Count were impressing their dates just having a game against Morphy.|
|Jan-23-11|| ||Lennonfan: Even though i know this game is legendary i think your all over analysing whether white should have taken the b pawn or develop his knight etc..this game is famous for 2 reasons..the player whom won,and the circumstances in which he won it,nothing to learn from it really..
I presume that morphy in his haste,wasn't looking to learn anything from this game either,against lets face it 2 weak players,and if he knew now the discussion and fuss this game has caused over the yrs he'd have a little chuckle to himself...morphy was a great great player genuinely ahead of his time,but if it were possible to ask him now to name one of his games that would go down in history,it wouldn't have been this one...great discussion though i enjoy reading all your comments...|
|Jan-23-11|| ||Cushion: 8. Bxf7+ is far better then Nc3.|
|Jan-26-11|| ||TuxedoKnight: Paul Morphy is my favorite chess player, he and his crazy moves...|
PD: i am doing a web project, where you can easily share your games by submitting your PGN into my iFrame generator.
-variations 1.e4 e5 (1... Nc6 2.Nf3) 2.Bd3
-set initial board rotation
-show captured pieces!
-set a title
-show PGN (every move is a link to that move)
-its only 450x450 px!
check it out at my web page: www.tuxedoknight.webege.com
|Jan-27-11|| ||Llawdogg: This is my favorite game of all time. Morphy played so beautifully. He sacrificed the knight, the exchange, and ultimately the queen, and mated with his last two pieces in only 17 moves. Simply amazing! It's the first game I ever memorized.|
|Feb-22-11|| ||AVRO38: I like this better than Anderssen's Immortal, it's more methodical. |
BTW Duke Karl was Queen Victoria's 2nd cousin, not sure who Count Isouard was.
|Feb-23-11|| ||Penguincw: I wonder what would happen if black played 8...b4.|
|Feb-23-11|| ||PSC: <RoseQueen: Not to sound offensive, but Qxb7 is straight up, a patzer's move.> In an interview Nigel Short said this was his favourite game ever, but he couldn't understand why Morphy didn't take on b7.|
|Feb-24-11|| ||Penguincw: < PSC: <RoseQueen: Not to sound offensive, but Qxb7 is straight up, a patzer's move.> In an interview Nigel Short said this was his favourite game ever, but he couldn't understand why Morphy didn't take on b7. > If 8.xb7 then after 8...b4+ 9.xb4 xb4+,the queens are off the board and it's harder for Morphy to convert this position into a win.Also,Morphy had his back against a play in the opera,so he wanted to win quickly.|
|Feb-25-11|| ||PSC: <Penguincw> 8.Qxb7 Qb4+ 9.Qxb+ is technically winning, I very much doubt whether Morphy would have any trouble winning that position. I agree with you <... he wanted to win quickly> and that's why he played 8.Nc3!? and not 8.Qxb7, not that <Rosequeen: Qxb7 is straight up, a patzer's move>.|
|Feb-25-11|| ||Kinghunt: Agreed. Morphy KNEW he was a much better player and would win anyway. So it wasn't a question of finding the surest way to win, but of finding the flashiest way to win.|
On that note though, 8. Bxf7+ is an interesting move worth considering. The idea here being that after 8...Qxf7, Morphy could play 9. Qxb7 without black being able to force queens off the board.
|Feb-25-11|| ||Penguincw: < PSC: <Penguincw> 8.Qxb7 Qb4+ 9.Qxb+ is technically winning, I very much doubt whether Morphy would have any trouble winning that position. I agree with you <... he wanted to win quickly> and that's why he played 8.Nc3!? and not 8.Qxb7, not that <Rosequeen: Qxb7 is straight up, a patzer's move>. > I guess it's a winning position (see diagram below) as Morphy is up a pawn,and has the bishop pair,in an open position.However,the game will probably not be a masterpiece,as happened in the game.With queens on the board,I think there would be more tactics and sacrifices in the air.|
click for larger view
By the way,Black will re-gain the pawn eventually with ...xe4.
|Feb-25-11|| ||Lil Swine: <peguincw> Thats right, should Morphy have played Qxb7, There is a force of exchange. Of course, I personally know that Morphy would have won anyway.He wouldn't lose to a chess nobody, royal or non royal|
|Feb-27-11|| ||RoseQueen: Wow people STILL insist on Qxb7 despite several explanations as to why Morphy didn't play it. Material isn't everything you guys, initiative counts more. |
By the way, to the people that think that black can win back the e4 pawn, he can't. You don't even need a computer program to assist you after ...Bb4+, c3 the black dark square bishop has to move. After it retreats to safety anywhere either f3 or Nbc2 defend the the e4 pawn and white is winning. But the win is somewhat technical and ways off.
|Mar-18-11|| ||Orhtej: I agreed..black can't regain a pawn|
|Mar-26-11|| ||Penguincw: < Lil Swine: <peguincw> Thats right, should Morphy have played Qxb7, There is a force of exchange. Of course, I personally know that Morphy would have won anyway.He wouldn't lose to a chess nobody, royal or non royal >|
Actually,there's an odd story with that.In jessicafischerqueen's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTPb...) at 9:47,it says,
" 'In a game with the Queen of England (Morphy) gallantly permitted Her Majesty to win.' "
--New Orleans Times-Democrat
|Apr-02-11|| ||Lil Swine: < peguincw. thank you, i stand corrected.|
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