< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Dec-26-16|| ||ChessHigherCat: <Big Pawn: It appears that White has no more than a draw in the final position. After 20. Qxf6 21. Qxf6 Nc6 it seems like a perpetual might be White's best choice.>|
How does black defend against 22. Qf5 in your line?
|Dec-26-16|| ||Big Pawn: <ChessHigherCat>, I think he can just move his rook over and all is well. 22...Rfd8. If the game goes on, black is better, so white should take a perpetual.|
|Dec-26-16|| ||steinitzfan: I think White wins by moving 22 Qg5+ followed by Qf5. Black should have played it out to see though. I think he just saw he was going to lose his queen and didn't count the material.|
|Dec-26-16|| ||perfidious: <steinitzfan: I think (after the suggested continuation) White wins by moving 22 Qg5+ followed by Qf5....>|
Indeed he does.
|Dec-26-16|| ||Big Pawn: <perfidious: <steinitzfan: I think (after the suggested continuation) White wins by moving 22 Qg5+ followed by Qf5....>
Indeed he does.>
23...Kg7 is not mate. At best it's a draw so white should take it. White doesn't want to avoid a draw and let black play on with a structure and more material.
|Dec-26-16|| ||steinitzfan: <Big Pawn> I think you're right. At any rate I was stone blind to Kg7. I will post again if I see anything important.|
|Dec-26-16|| ||Big Pawn: <steinitzfan: <Big Pawn> I think you're right. At any rate I was stone blind to Kg7. I will post again if I see anything important.>|
Yes, it's kind of hidden in plain view.
<perfidious: Indeed he does.>
A lot like your comments on the <rogoff> page <perfidious>. You, a LIFE MASTER, should have seen Kg7.
|Dec-27-16|| ||steinitzfan: I am looking this game over with Fritz right now (he's less prone to miss things than me) and found something interesting. Black resigned at the moment that Morphy gave him a new lease on life. Morphy actually missed a quick mate with 20Bh6. After that move Black can only delay mate by giving away material pointlessly for a few moves.|
|Dec-27-16|| ||Sally Simpson: Both Sergeant and Maróczy in their books say this game was played in New Orleans in 1855.|
So this one does appear to be the bogey and
Morphy vs NN, 1855 is the original.
Sergeant just give 20.Bxf6 and wins.
Maróczy points out in his book 20.Bh6 is the win.
|Dec-27-16|| ||sneaky pete: 20.Bh6 Kh8 21.Qf5 Qxd3 22.Qxf6+ .. or 20... Qxd3 21.Qxd3 Kh8 22.Qf5 .. will do the trick.|
|Dec-27-16|| ||steinitzfan: Actually, I am enjoying seeing how Fritz handles the game line with 20Bf6. Has anyone written a book that just shows the fantastic things that engines can accomplish? The engine evaluates White's position as about +2.0 after 20Bf6. White moves an early Be4 and Black's king pawn and king rook pawn are evidently toast -- for a number of reasons various and sundry. It's computer chess through and through. I would take the perpetual. I don't think NN saw all this when he resigned. As I said earlier, I think he just saw he was about to lose his queen and forgot to count material.|
|Dec-27-16|| ||zanzibar: <<steinitzfan> Has anyone written a book that just shows the fantastic things that engines can accomplish?>|
Watson thinks so too,
<The analysis overall is clearly a big improvement upon that of the classical annotators, with chess engines accounting for much of this.>
A few thoughts from the big guy himself:
|Feb-03-17|| ||Big Pawn: <perfidious: <steinitzfan: I think (after the suggested continuation) White wins by moving 22 Qg5+ followed by Qf5....>
Indeed he does.>
Indeed he does? I thought you used to be a master?
23...Kg7 is not mate. At best it's a draw so white should take it. White doesn't want to avoid a draw and let black play on with a structure and more material
<perfidious>, you have been corrected, son.
|Feb-04-17|| ||perfidious: <Geoff....Maróczy points out in his book 20.Bh6 is the win.>|
So long as that lump of lead at f8 is not a knight, looks promising from here.
As to the neverwas (not even a hasbeenusetawas) who has spewed emesis all over this page, how is it that, in his infinite wisdom, he did not provide more than general commentary? Instead of responding directly to the original poster, it was a dose of the usual. How is it that <kudzu> did not realise the following?
<steinitzfan: Actually, I am enjoying seeing how Fritz handles the game line with 20Bf6. Has anyone written a book that just shows the fantastic things that engines can accomplish? The engine evaluates White's position as about +2.0 after 20Bf6. White moves an early Be4 and Black's king pawn and king rook pawn are evidently toast -- for a number of reasons various and sundry....>
Guess we know why; despite his usual claptrap, there are doubtless plenty who have accomplished far more at chess, and in things that matter more, than <kudzu> ever has. Period. End of story.
|Feb-04-17|| ||Big Pawn: I just wanted to correct you, <perfidious>. You agreed that White wins after 22. Qg5.|
<perfidious: <steinitzfan: I think (after the suggested continuation) White wins by moving 22 Qg5+ followed by Qf5....> Indeed he does.>
But it only takes half a minute to look at the position and see that it doesn't.
Who knows, maybe 30 years ago you would have seen it.
|Feb-04-17|| ||Big Pawn: Wait a minute, are you now agreeing with me that your affirmation of 22.Qg5 was mistaken?|
Are you accepting my correction?
Or are you standing by it? Because if you are standing by it, I can offer some variations to help you understand the position better.
Let me know if I can help.
|Apr-30-17|| ||steinitzfan: White can still win after Qg5+ but he needs to backtrack with Qf6+ and only then the problem-like Be4 as given by Fritz.|
|Apr-30-17|| ||Big Pawn: <steinitzfan>, could you post the winning line?|
|May-01-17|| ||steinitzfan: It's engine Chess. It's more like a cascade of lines. I'll post in a couple of days.|
|May-06-17|| ||steinitzfan: Ah, the joys of computer Chess. Let's take a look at the main line that Fritz plays if you let him play both sides from move 22.|
After 21 ... Nc6,
22 Be4 ...
Oddly Fritz gives this position app. 2.0 for White even though he's sort of like down 3 pawns.
It looks like Black has a lot of latitude here but it's an illusion. More on this in a minute.
23 Qg5 ch ...
A little clearer than going to f5 directly.
23 ... Kh8
24 Qf5 Kg7
The only move. If the king were on g8 we would have to calculate rook evacuations. There's enough work here to do already.
25 Qxh7 ch Kf6
First pawn recovered.
26 Qf5 ch Ke7
Kg7 succumbs to a quick mate.
27 Bc6 bxc6
.. or check first. Fritz does it that way sometimes.
28 Qxe5 ch ...
Second pawn recovered.
A definite improvement in White's fortunes. He's got a queen for two rooks and Black has multiple pawn weaknesses. Fritz evaluates as app. 2.5 for White.
Two questions to be addressed.
(1) Can Black improve his play after move 22 to avoid the loss of the pawns or having his pawn structure ruined - and
(2) Is Black's game truly lost once White achieves these objectives.
In light of the fact that I haven't resolved point 2 I'm reducing my claim from "White wins" to "White achieves a probably won game." I plan to study this endgame and others like it for my own pleasure until I can get some kind of resolution but for the moment I'll confine myself to point 1.
|May-06-17|| ||steinitzfan: A look at move 22
22 Be4 ...
Black seems to have a lot of latitude here. It seems like he would be able to do something to contain his losses. However, moving a rook to e8 to defend the e pawn doesn't help because when the king gets pushed to e7 the rook will be blocked.
Then there's the knight. That poor knight needs to stay where he is. A move to the back rank (and Nd8 looks awfully good) breaks the coordination of the rooks and allows a quick mate. (23.Qg5, Kh8; 24. Qh6 and Black can't block the bishop's diagonal and defend the hanging rook at the same time).
Moving the knight to a5 or d4 loses to a quick queen fork (23. Qg5 ch followed by Qxe5).
The move 22...Nb4 loses to the move 23.Bf5 -- a problem move (10.93 for White. When Fritz first uncorked this move I thought at first it was one of those weird zugzwang type moves that databases make. Not really but beautiful Chess anyway. After trying different defenses I finally realized that the main points of this move are (1)securing the diagonal going to h7 so the queen is free to move to h6, and (2) preventing a rook from accessing the second rank to defend.
|May-06-17|| ||steinitzfan: Correction: In my first post of the day (the 6th) the move I gave as 22...Ra8 should have been 22...Ra8-d8.|
|May-06-17|| ||Calli: <Sergeant and Maróczy in their books say this game was played in New Orleans in 1855.>|
The earlier collections (1859-60) of Lange and Löwenthal do not include this game. Lange's 3rd edition (1894) does have it. He gives New Orleans 1855 and the opponent as "A.P." https://books.google.com/books?id=C... However, Lange, in his editions, simply made up initials for many anonymous players. I don't know the reason for this, but remember being fooled when I first saw it. "A.P." should not be trusted at this point.
It appears, then, that Sergeant used Maróczy as a source and Maróczy's source was Lange's 3rd ed, but there must an earlier publication.
|May-10-17|| ||Calli: Was able to trace this back a little further to the February 1882 issue of Brentano's Chess Monthly on page 523 of vol 1. This was a short lived magazine in 1881-1882. I can't give a link because it's not online as far as I know. The magazine ran a series of articles by noted Morphy collector Gustav Reichhelm. He added sixty-four games to those given by Löwenthal and Lange. Lange's 2nd has 295 games. |
Reichhelm does not give a location or a date for the game, but does identify Black as "Mr P".
Summary: Lange's source was very probably Reichhelm, but Lange's date and location are unconfirmed. "Mr P" seems to be valid, but I think Lange added the "A" initial himself. Is there an earlier publication? I intend to look at the New Orleans newspapers at Chess Archaeology, but, of course, not every chess column is there. If the game was not New Orleans 1855, then it's a needle in a haystack.
|Jun-04-17|| ||Calli: I came up empty looking at New Orleans newspapers. I did find the game in Jay Whitehead's database where the game is dated 1857 and in New Orleans. This makes some sense because Morphy spent most of 1855 at college. Unfortunately, I don't know Whitehead's source.|
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