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Peter Vasilievich Dubinin vs Alexander Kazimirovich Tolush
USSR Championship (1947), Leningrad URS, rd 19, Mar-08
Spanish Game: Closed Variations (C84)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-02-09  xrt999: <psmith: Correction:
I think the position after 72... b4 73.g6 hxg6+ 74.xg6 xc4 deserves careful analysis before it is written off as a draw. Playing around with Fritz 5.32 I keep coming up with strong resources for *Black*.>

That is really very unremarkable that Fritz says black has an advantage since he has an extra knight.

I mean, really, who here is going to play that OTB and go into an endgame with this position as white, down a piece based on what a tablebase says?

In this case, white has 25 legal responses. Statistically, for white, the chance of white drawing -finding a drawing line out of 25 possible moves -approaches zero, and in reality this line is LOSING for white.

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: I looked at it for a while, and wisely decided NOT to go with 72...Nd6+, having forseen 73.Rxd6 Kxd6 74.Bf4+ skewering & winning my rook.

I looked at it some more, and finally decided to offer white a draw.

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <YouRang> wrote: I looked at it for a while, and wisely decided NOT to go with 72...Nd6+, having forseen 73.Rxd6 Kxd6 74.Bf4+ skewering & winning my rook. >

Mea culpa, my previous comment overlooks this skewer. I confess that I noticed 72...Nd6+ late, well into my analysis of 72...Rb4. By then, 72...Nd6+ seemed uninteresting by comparison.

Jan-02-09  MostlyAverageJoe: <YouRang: I looked at it for a while, and wisely decided NOT to go with 72...Nd6+, having forseen 73.Rxd6 Kxd6 74.Bf4+ skewering & winning my rook.>

Except that 74. .. Kc5 75. Bxb8 Kxc4 wins it back and forces a draw.

<johnlspouge> WHAT <R+P vs. B+P endgame> ??? The line from <zenpharaohs> is identical to mine (repated above), resulting in a completely drawn B+P vs B+P endgame.

Jan-02-09  MostlyAverageJoe: <johnlspouge> OK, never mind my last question.
Jan-02-09  EdwardT: 72 ... Rb4
73 g6 hxg6+
74 Kxg6 Rxc4
75 Rc1 Nc3

And black has a good position. What am I missing?

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: <Kasputin> I withdrew my post because I thought my comment was technically incorrect.

I originally opined that 74 Rd4 below could draw because it would force a rook exchange or black would lose a piece.


click for larger view

From the resultant position it would be difficult for white to win.

Now, with the light of day, I will stand by that comment. For example, if 74...Rxd4 75 Bxd4 can black still win with opposite colored bishops and no passed pawn?


click for larger view

Jan-02-09  psmith: <xrt999>: "That is really very unremarkable that Fritz says black has an advantage since he has an extra knight."

No, I mean that I have played out a lot of variations with Fritz and I keep finding that in the end Black is winning -- not by just an extra Knight. Try it and see!

Jan-02-09  psmith: Here is an example. I do not claim this proves anything!

73. g6 hxg6+ 74. ♔xg6 ♖xc4 and now

75. ♖c1 ♗e8+ 76. ♔f5 ♘d6+ 77. ♔g5 ♘f7+ 78. ♔f5 ♗d7+ 79. ♔g6 ♘e5+ wins: (a) 80. ♔g5 ♖g4+ 81. ♔h6 (81. ♔h5 ♔f6 82. ♖f1+ ♗f5) 81... ♔f6 82. ♖f1+ ♗f5 (b) 80. ♔h5 ♗e8+ 81. ♔g5 ♘f3+ 82. ♔h6 ♖e4 83. ♖c7+ ♔f6 84. ♗f2 ♘d4 85. ♖c5 ♘f5+ 86. ♖xf5+ ♔xf5

Jan-02-09  psmith: All this suggests to me is the need for careful analysis.
Jan-02-09  xrt999: from your post, you said that after 73. g6 hxg6+ 74. Kxg6 Rxc4 you find "strong resources for black", which contradicts tablebase and engine analysis as aforementioned by several posters, which said that this is a draw. I noted that tablebases notwithstanding, this seems to be the obvious case, since black is up a full piece. Common sense would dictate that this line is bad for white.

In the real world, you dont have access to tablebases while playing a game, and even if you did, white has 25 legal moves from which to choose from. Futhermore, even if you were given drawing lines for white from the possible 25 legal moves for white at move 75 in your line, I doubt that it would make any difference. Moreover, ask any strong player if they would take this line, and go into move 75 and feel confident as white about drawing, and I would venture a guess that most would not take this line.

I THOUGHT that we were saying the same thing, but now I am not so sure....typical day for me here on CG

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  neilmcmurdo: I thought this was an excellent puzzle, esp. for matchplay practice.

Strictly speaking both candidate moves 72 ... Rb4 and 72 ... Nd6 both seem to lead to a draw.

But the former is by far the preferable option as it gives white far more opportunities to hang themselves - and therefore the probability of winning with 72 ... Rb4 in a match situation is much higher (esp. if your opponent is in time trouble)

Jan-02-09  wals: P Dubinin - Tolush, USSR Championship 1947

Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit:Time 37min 48 sec

1. (-0.33): 72...Rb4 73.g6[] hxg6+ 74.Kxg6[] Rxc4 75.Rc1 Rxc1 76.Bxc1 Ke6 77.Bb2 Be8+ 78.Kh6 Bf7 79.Bd4 Kf5 80.Kg7 Bd5 81.Kf8 Ke6 82.Kg7 Ng5 83.Bb2 Nf7

2. = (0.05): 72...Nd6+ 73.Rxd6[] Kxd6[] 74.Bf4+ Kc5[] 75.Bxb8 Kxc4[] 76.Ke5 Kd3 77.Ba7 Be8[] 78.Bc5 Bf7[] 79.Bd4 Bg6[] 80.Bg1 Be8[] 81.Kf4

(, 03.01.2009)

Jan-02-09  psmith: <wals> Rybka's analysis is not very revealing since in your first line 75... ♖xc1 is obviously not the line to play if you want to win. The position after 76. ♗xc1 is a draw by tablebases.

What does Rybka give after 75... ♗e8+?

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I got the first move and the general idea
Jan-02-09  MostlyAverageJoe: <xrt999: ... after 73. g6 hxg6+ 74. Kxg6 Rxc4 ... Common sense would dictate that this line is bad for white ... ask any strong player if they would take this line, and go into move 75 and feel confident as white about drawing, and I would venture a guess that most would not take this line>

White's choices are:

1) Play 73.g6 hxg6+ 74.xg6 xc4 and end up with a minor piece down and no pawns, or

2) Play 73.<anything else but g6> and end up with a minor piece down and two pawns still on the board.

According to you, any strong player would prefer (2) over (1).

Pardon me, but I give more value to the opinion of Reuben Fine who said something to the effect "When ahead in material, exchange piece." The corollary is that if you're behind in material, then you should exchange pawns. Which is exactly what line (1) does.

But hey, what do I know. Maybe there is something in this position that warrants disregarding that rule. If so, please do enlighten us.

Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  norami: 73.g6 was White's only chance. Sure better than 73.Bd5 and resigns four moves later.
Jan-02-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  zenpharaohs: MostlyAverageJoe: "But hey, what do I know."

What you know is that if you are going down, you want those pawns off the board right away.

The piece "advantage" is huge ONLY if the other pieces on the board add up to a win. A Queen? That piece looms large. Minor pieces only? The extra piece is not so big. Go ahead and try and force mate with Knight and Bishop against a King that has a piece.

Jan-03-09  MostlyAverageJoe: BTW, black missed a much earlier opportunity to win a piece after white's 29th move:


click for larger view

Black to move, difficulty level: about average Wednesday.

Solution: see my forum.

Jan-03-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  norami: 73.g6 would have ended up KRBN against KRB. Tough to defend but probably a draw with best play. We'll know for sure when they complete the 7-man tablebases, which should be done a few years from now.
Jan-03-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For the Friday Jan 2, 2009 puzzle solution, Black's 72...Rb4! sets up a potential winning double attack.

Several alternatives to the material loss in the game continuation lead to mate. See <johnlspouge>'s analysis for specificis.

However, after 72...Rb4! the surprise defense 73. g6! appears to give White some drawing chances. See Rybka 3 analysis by <Wals> and subsequent commentary on 73. g6!

Jan-03-09  Kasputin: Hi <Jimfromprovidence>

You say <From the resultant position it would be difficult for white to win ...For example, if 74...Rxd4 75 Bxd4 can black still win with opposite colored bishops and no passed pawn?>

(black to move)


click for larger view

I think it is a technical win for black - not easy (especially for someone of my calibre) but do-able. In fact, when I get a chance I am going to try it out. Probably good practice.

Here is how I think I would go about it - there may be other methods of course.

From the diagram above, black should be able to get his king to g6. The first move would be ...Kf7.

Black should then be able to get the white king away from defence of the pawn at g5. It could look something like this:


click for larger view

Black plants his king on h5. Then black, using the knight and king, will capture the white g5 pawn.


click for larger view

White can then capture the black knight on g5 with his remaining bishop, but if that happens, black can recapture with the king. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is an easy win. The h1 square is the same colour as the black bishop and so black's h-pawn, despite being a rook pawn, can make it to the queening square (the black bishop can keep the white king out of that important queening square on h1).

The other thing that can happen is that white does not take the knight with the bishop. But in that case, white will eventually have to sacrifice that bishop in order to stop the advance of the h-pawn. That leaves black with a knight and bishop against a lone king - that isn't an easy win (again for someone like me) but if I know what I am doing, then black can force the white king into a corner that is the same colour as the bishop and checkmate the black king.

By the way, although he was discussing a different line <johnlspouge>, in an earlier post, does mention the same same kind of scenario that you are describing: with black having knight, bishop and pawn versus white having bishop and pawn. In his post, however, he shows a win for black with white's king making it to h6.

Jan-03-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: <Kasputin> <I think it is a technical win for black ->

I think you are correct. I re-visited my post and now I think that I was completely off.

First, all other things being equal and being behind, white should not try to exchange rooks, but rather keep his on the board.

Second, the position I championed should be winnable for black, as you aptly described, after the proper maneuvering of his pieces.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

Jan-03-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  GrahamClayton: <Kasputin>
B) 72 ...♖b4
73. ♗d3 ♘d6+
74. ♔e5 ♘f7+
75. ♔f5 ♗d7#

This checkmate is very pleasing - all 5 Black pieces contribute to the mating net.

Apr-07-11  chesssantosh: i fell for the trap and went for 72..Nd6
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