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Richard Reti vs Dunkelblum
Vienna (1914), Vienna AUT, Dec-02
Three Knights Opening: General (C46)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-25-08  sombreronegro: Almost gave up. Looks like 8.Q-c5. I missed the mate threat on f8. That knight can't move and c7 is not looking good. That is best I found anyway.
Mar-25-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: Well, I saw 8.Qc5 and the double threat it entails, but after 8...Nh6, I didn't see it winning more than the c7 pawn. (Okay, it also takes away black's castling rights and leaves him with an awkward position to defend).

I guess we can go deeper than that and find that there are further material gains ahead, but to plunge those depths take this past the realm of Tuesday, IMHO.

Mar-25-08  TheaN: 2/2

At least, I think. I didn't get all defenses tbh, but the ideas are the same.

8.Qc5 strikes with a premature end to the game where Black seemingly was playing correct moves, developing his pieces.

8.Qc5 with Qf8#, Qxc7+ and some threats regarding Nxc7 are fatal.

8....Ke8 9.Nxc7+

8....Ne7 9.Qxc7+ Ke8 10.Nd6+ Qxd6 (Kf8 11.Qd8#) 11.Qxd6

8....Qe7 9.Qxc7+ Ke8 10.Nd6+ Kf8 11.Nxc8

8....Qe6 9.Qf8+ Qe8 10.Qxe8+ Kxe8 11.Nxc7

8....Nh6 (best try) 9.Qxc7+ Ke7! and that I actually missed. But now the Black King is too exposed, putting a lot of pieces out of play and actually not accomplishing anything. After 10.Nc3, White can claim a , probably, with threats like Nd5+. I still admit that I missed this at first sight, but I would've seen it being futile after the said continuation.

Nice play by Reti.

Mar-25-08  Magic Castle: <woodpusher> I think the best defense is Nh6 followed by Ke7 and if white moves Nc3 black moves Qe6. Here looks like he only loses the pawn and the attack but the game is far from over. Will someone give me the mating or immediate winning combination after black reply of Qe6 to the Nc3 as suggested by Woodpusher?
Mar-25-08  awfulhangover: Only Tuesday, but took me at least 5 minutes. Feeling dumb now.
Mar-25-08  xrt999: <JG27Pyth: Found this one thinking, "gee Qf8 is mate, how can I threaten that... say! Qc5 attacks c7 and threatens f8, I believe I've got my move! Which is to say, I _still_ haven't learned to do Dzechiel/JohnLSpouge/UdayanOwen/MAJ/ConstantImpr- - ovement/ --style due-dilligence on my moves >

How many more people do you think are going to copy the dzchiel? My guess is many, many, many more people for me to put on ignore in the time to come.

8.Qc5 Nh6 (seems to have everyone enamored including the illustrious Mr. Chiel) 9.h4

And I wont even give it an exclamation point. Forced, Black is going to lose a piece for a pawn.

Mar-25-08  xrt999: < JNewton: I don't see a clear white win after 8 ... Nh6, planning on bringing the King to relative safety on e7. After the apparently strong 9 h4, Black has the sac Nf3+ which appears to muddy the waters more than a bit.>

Why dont you go buy a Chessmaster 6000 from ebay for like 5 bucks.

Mar-25-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<xrt999> WROTE: <Why dont you go buy a Chessmaster 6000 from ebay for like 5 bucks.>

...or if you are really cheap, my chessforum gives instructions on downloading freeware for chess analysis.

Mar-25-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  JamesBJames: Dunno why it took upwards of 5 minutes (actually I do and it's because I never saw Qf8#), but I finally got Qc5!
Mar-25-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  benveniste: <Magic Castle> After:

8. Qc5 Nh6
9. Qxc7+ Ke7?
10. Nb3 Qe6

White plays the obvious 11. Nd5+. Eventually, that knight ends up forking king and rook from c7.

Mar-25-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: <<JG27Pyth> wrote: Found this one thinking, "gee Qf8 is mate, how can I threaten that... say!>

I found today awkward, too, <JG27Pyth>. I worked forward, after going through available checks, captures, and threats, until I saw Qc5, and then the mate threat. You just encouraged me to add another technique to my armamentarium of preliminary analysis: imagine pieces mating <if> they were in a particular position, e.g., Qf8 today. Granted, the technique will have rare success, but it provides another sieve for finding the key move.

Mar-25-08  wals: 8...Nh6 prevents any chance of Qf8#
Mar-25-08  Jason Frost: <Magic Castle: <woodpusher> I think the best defense is Nh6 followed by Ke7 and if white moves Nc3 black moves Qe6. Here looks like he only loses the pawn and the attack but the game is far from over. Will someone give me the mating or immediate winning combination after black reply of Qe6 to the Nc3 as suggested by Woodpusher?>

8.Qc5 Nh6(really only move)
9.Qxc7+ Ke7
10.Nc3 Qe6
11.Nd5+ Ke8
12.Bxh6 gxh6
13.Qc3

Time to resign

8.Qc5 Nh6
9.Qxc7+ Ke8
10.Nd6+ Ke7
11.Be3 b6
12.0-0-0 Neg4
13.Bb5

Time to reasign

Mar-25-08  littlefermat: Took me a minute or two to figure this out. However, I realized a somewhat obvious point: systematically examining black's weaknesses (C7 pawn and the weak back rank), helps to identify what White ought to do. In general, this seems to make the puzzles easier.
Mar-25-08  Jason Frost: <eblunt: < JNewton: Does anybody have a concrete variation that nets white more than a Pawn after 8 ... Nh6? > 8 ...h6 9. h4 ! wins at least a piece immediately.>

Oh, yeah,wow thats pretty simply winning.

I don't know maybe black can play on with somthing like 9.......Qb6
10.Qxe5 Qxf2
11.Kgf2 Ng4+
with 1 pawn for a piece :) but yeah

JNewton: I don't see a clear white win after 8 ... Nh6, planning on bringing the King to relative safety on e7. After the apparently strong 9 h4, Black has the sac Nf3+ which appears to muddy the waters more than a bit.>

Hmmm actually might be blacks best chance to confuse white in to a draw

9.......Nf3
10.gxf3 Qxf3
11.Qxc7 Ke7
12.Rh3 (Your queen has no sqares to go to without you bieng forced to loose more material, e.g. 13...Qg4 14. Bg5+)

Mar-25-08  zooter: White first needs to take on c7 after

8.Qc5 Nh6 9.Qxc7+

Now,

9...Ke7 loses to the simple 10.Nc3

while 9...Kd8 loses to 10.h4 threatening 11.Bg5 with all sorts of ugly consequences. Don't forget that 11.Nd6 is still an option and white would be winning just on development alone and the poor position of the black king (all analysis with help of crafty)

Apr-02-08  Jason Frost: <zooter> as <eblunt> pointed out there is no reason to first take on c7 9.h4 wins immidiatly.
Aug-28-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  GrahamClayton: This game had been played 5 years beforehand:

Capablanca vs E B Adams, 1909

Sep-02-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  GrahamClayton: Source: CN 1992 Edward Winter, "Kings, Commoners & Knaves", Russell Enterprises, 1999
Dec-03-08  Amarande: Further, if -

8 Qc5 Nh6 9 Qxc7+ Ke7 10 Nc3 Nf3+ (as suggested) 11 gxf3 Qxf3 12 Nd5+ appears to be winning.

a) 12 ... Ke8 13 Qe5+ Kf8 14 Qd6+ mates (14 ... Ke8 15 Qe7#, or 14 ... Kg8 15 Ne7+ Kf8 16 Ng6+ etc.).

b) 12 ... Kf8 14 Qd6+ again with the same mating patterns

So 12 ... Ke6 is necessary. There then follows 13 Nf4+ and now:

c) 13 ... Ke7 14 Qe5+ Kf8 15 Qd6+ Ke8 16 Nd5 Ng8 17 b3! Qxh1 18 Ba3 and there is no defense to Qf8# that doesn't allow a mate at e7 instead.

c2) here if 15 ... Kg8 16 Nd5 leads to mate: 16 ... Qxh1 17 Ne7+ etc. as before, or 16 ... g6 17 Bxh6 and there is no defense to Qf8#, or 16 ... f6 17 Bc4 (threatening Nxf6 double check and mate) Qxh1+ 18 Ke2 g6 19 Bxh6 and, as White now has nine different mating moves including two double checks, mate can be delayed by one move at most.

d) 13 ... Kf6 14 Qd6+ Kg5 15 Qe5+ Nf5 16 Qxf5+ Kh4 17 Ng6+! and 18 Qg5#.

Nov-16-09  PeterB: Amazingly, 7...Kd8 is a blunder since Black has 7...c6!! and White has to deal with ...Nf3!
Nov-16-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  An Englishman: Good Evening: <PeterB>, nice resource, but White keeps a positional edge with 8.Nd6+,Ke7!? (Kf8; 9.Be3 or Qd6+); 9.Nf5+,Kf8; 10.Qd6+!? or Be3!?. Nonetheless, I do believe you have found the best defense--and after a century of kibitzing.
Nov-10-10  chesschampion11: Can black play 8...Qe7 ?
Nov-10-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sastre: <8...Qe7 9.Qxc7+ Ke8 10.Nd6+ Kf8 11.Nxc8 Qb4+ 12.c3 Qxe4+ 13.Be3> is winning for White.
Jun-27-12  Wyatt Gwyon: Well that just sucks. lol.
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