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May-02-11
 | | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> I've analyzed some variations from move 10. Na4, onward. The last variation analyzed gave me a winner for Black with 77 moves. |
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| May-02-11 | | Jim Bartle: "Black wins in 77 moves with the Queen's Indian Defense: Petrosian Variation (E12):
1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nf3 b6
4. a3"
That would be news to the white players who won 831 games with this variation in this database. 576 wins for black. |
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May-02-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> I guess it shall be news for the white players. But I don't know how to put the moves on a diagram. It would be tedious to type the 77 moves, one by one and kibitz! |
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| May-02-11 | | Jim Bartle: Perhaps you should inform Karpov, Bronstein, Gulko, Kavalek, Larsen, Browne, Polugaevsky, Seirawan, Yusupov, Smyslov, Andersson, Short and many others. Every one of them has lost from that postion as black. Do you want the list of players who have won as white as well? http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...
Here's a famous white win from that position: Kasparov vs Ulf Andersson, 1981 |
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May-02-11
| | Mozart72: Does anybody know of any chess tool that I can use to move the chess pieces and make diagrams like the one Chessgames.com has? |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> If you have any information about that chess tool I'm asking about I would be more than happy to informe the chess players you have kindly mentioned. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> I guess you don't have it. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Stay tune. I'll type the game tomorrow. |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: You're an endless source of entertainment, mozart72. Do you have the slightest idea how huge a complete analysis to 77 moves (the longest white can supposedly last) of 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. a3 would be? It would probably be the size of all of chessgames.com. Why not make that "77 moves" post on the Nigel Short page and tell him he lost from a clearly won position in the following games: Lautier vs Short, 1996
Yusupov vs Short, 1986
Polugaevsky vs Short, 1985
Browne vs Short, 1985
Plaskett vs Short, 1984
Timman vs Short, 1982
O Cvitan vs Short, 1981
K Burger vs Short, 1981
I'm sure Mr. Short will appreciate it. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> I'll type the game at sunrise. It's only 77 moves. Black wins. And yes, Mozart was and is a source of entertaiment. |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: Type it, with all the variations? |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> No, just the 77 moves. I'm entertaining, remember? Not stupid. |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: I wonder sometimes.
So you are going to show one single game from the position, no variations, and claim that's proof that black wins? I really, really hope that with your super-exaggerated opinion of your analytic powers, that you do not play poker. The other players would leave you penniless in a few hands. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Poker is for gun-slingers and spittoons. Chess is for your eyes only. I'll type the 77 moves tomorrow. Hasta mañana. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Alekhine vs Nenarova
Moska 1907. Queen's Indian: Petrosian (E12)
1. d4 d5
2. c4 Nc6
3. Nf3 Bg4
4. cxd5 Qxd5
5. Nc3 Qa5
6. d5 O-O-O
7. Bd2 Bxf3
8. exf3 Nb4
9. a3 Nxd5
10. Na4 Nb6
11. Bxa5 Rad1+
11. Rxd1 Nxa4
12. b3 Nb6
14. Bb5 Nf6
15. Bc3 Nbd5
16. Bb2 e6
17. O-O Bd6
18. Rfe1 Rd8
19. g3 c6
20. Bd3 b6
21. Kg2 Kb7
22. b4 c5
23. bxc5 Bxc5
24. h3 h5
25. h4 a6
26. a4 Bb4
27. Re2 Bc3
28. f4 Bxb2
29. Rxb2 g6
30. Rbd2 Rc8
31. Rc2 Rxc2
32. Bxc2 b5
33. Kf3 b4
34. a5 Nd7
35. Bb3 Kc6
36. Bxd5+ exd5
37. Ke3 Nc5
38. Rb1 Kb5
39. Kd4 Na4
40. Re1 b3
41. Kxd5 Nc3+
42. Kd4 Kb4
43. Kd3 b2
44. Kc2 b1Q+
45. Rxb1+ Nxb1
46. Kxb1 Kxa5
47. f3 f5
48. Kc2 Kb4
49. Kd3 a5
50. g4 Kb3
51. gxf5 gxf5
52. Kd4 a4
53.Ke5 a3
54. Kxf5 a2
55. Ke4 a1=Q
56. f5 Qa4+
57. Kd3 Qb5+
58. Kd2 Qc4
59. f6 Qxh4
60. f7 Qf2+
61. Kd3 Qf3+
62. Kd2 Qxf7
63. Ke2 Qe6+
64. Kf2 Qf6+
65. Kg2 Qb2+
66. Kg3 Qe5+
67. Kf2 Qf4+
68. Kg2 Qe4+
69. Kg1 Qe1+
70. Kh2 Qf2+
71. Kh1 Qf1+
72. Kh2 Qd3
73. Kg1 Qe2
74. Kh1 Kc4
75. Kg1 h4
76. Kh1 h3
77. Kg1 Qg2# |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: 1. d4 d5
2. c4 Nc6
3. Nf3 Bg4
That's a Queen's Indian Petrosian? I think Petrosian would be surprsied to learn that. If he were still alive, that is. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Stop fooling around. That's the beginnig of the "historic" short chess match. You Know what the QID: Petrosian Variation or Queen's Indian: Petrosian System (E12) is and where you can find it in the game. |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: A Queen's Indian without e6 OR Nf6. Right.
Plus of course, you originally said this position leads to a draw in 63 moves (riiiiiight). And now you claim it leads to a win in 77 (riiiiight). I honestly think all your posts together at cg are meant to be a chess Borat, fooling everyone into thinking you're serious. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Ok.
Alekhine vs Nenarova, Moskva 1907,
Queen's Indian: Petrosian (E12)
1. d4 ...
2. c4 ...
3. Nf3 ...
9. a3 ...
14. ... Nf6
16. ... e6
20. ... b6
QID: Petrosian Variation or Queen's Indian: Petrosian System (E12): 1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 e6
3. Nf3 b6
4. a3 |
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| May-03-11 | | Jim Bartle: So let me get this straight (typing between bouts of laughter): This game shows the QID Petrosian variation is a clear win for black because this particular game (and not a master game, a game you present as your own analysis) reaches a position you claim transposes to the Petrosian variation after 20 moves. And there are no possible improvements for white after the standard 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. a3? A variation played named after a World Champion and played by many of the world's best players? Really. Post this on the Nigel Short page and see what he thinks. Be sure to show him the eight games he lost from a clear winning position. |
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May-03-11
| | Mozart72: <Jim Bartle> Stop thinking standard. Why don't You post the game on Nigel Short's page and let him tell you what he thinks. Seriously. |
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May-03-11
 | | lost in space: Strange discussion here.
After 10. Na4 the game is clearly won for White as the black queen is trapped. Thats for sure. |
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May-03-11
 | | perfidious: <Jim Bartle: 1. d4 d5
2. c4 Nc6
3. Nf3 Bg4
That's a Queen's Indian Petrosian? I think Petrosian would be surprsied to learn that. If he were still alive, that is.> Oh, yes.
Jim, you've got a lot to learn (wink, nod).
There's no point in trying to explain to <Mozart72> that this a subvariation of the Chigorin QGD, as he'll merely quote some useless set of stats. He tells you to 'stop thinking standard', yet posts rivers of mindless crap. |
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| Aug-24-11 | | sfm: <Mozart72: I've analyzed some variations from move 10. Na4, onward. The last variation analyzed gave me a winner for Black with 77 moves.>
LOL! Love it, absolutely! |
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Jan-20-12
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Repost to get it on the "front page"
Sep-30-06
<Calli: <Exactly the 10 moves were played in Tolush vs Aronson, 24th USSR Championship, Leningrad, 1957>
<Sneaky Pete> Yes, that's the real game. This score was a fraud perpetrated by Grigory Bogunovich of Pittsburg, Pa who sent it in to Chess Review (September 1959, p257) along with a clearly rediculous story about the encounter. Note that it appeared shortly after Tolush-Aronson. I wonder if "Grigory Bogunovich" was a real person.> Oct-27-09
vonKrolock: Compare to Tolush vs Aronson, 1957 Tolush vs Aronson, 1957 And read also Edward Winter's <"The Alekhine vs Nenarokov Hoax"> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... and <"Chess Notes"> 6354 October 2009 |
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