< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jun-28-07|| ||YouRang: This was another one of those that I solved, but I wasn't convinced that I solved it. |
Definitely 6...Nd4 was a strong move. At the least, black wins a pawn and forces the king to move (prevent castling), but for some reason, I figured I needed more than that to have the "winner" move.
But on second thought, to have your position hosed like this so early against a good player, you might as well resign.
|Jun-28-07|| ||RookFile: <kevin86: White's choice of opening wasn't the best.>|
You mean it's bad to get a losing position with white after 6 moves??
|Jun-28-07|| ||PAWNTOEFOUR: when i'm confronted with the alekine,i always go to e5 and chase black's knight around for a while..but i did look at Nd4,but like many others i couldn't see where it lead to|
|Jun-28-07|| ||Peligroso Patzer: There is little question that 6. ... d4! is the strongest move in the position given in today's puzzle, but White's reply in the game (7. xd5?) is far-from-best. [In playing 7. xd5?, is it possible that White believed he was winning a piece (by failing to see 7...xd5! 8.xd5?? f3+ 9.f1 h3#)?] |
After 7. xd5?, Black's reply in the game (7. ... xd5!) is totally winning. In many respects, the position after 7. xd5? would have been a better "puzzle" than the one actually given. (My concept of a "puzzle" is a position in which there is a move that wins by force - or, on occasion, one that forces a draw in an inferior position). Black's position only became clearly winning after White's blunder on move 7, so 6. ... d4!, although unquestionably a strong move, is not a typical "puzzle-solution move" (since it does not win outright). After 6. ... d4!, either 7. h3 or 7. f3 would have left White in a difficult position, but one that was not outright lost.
|Jun-28-07|| ||Peligroso Patzer: <You mean it's bad to get a losing position with white after 6 moves??>|
Not to pick nits (... well, actually, I suppose that's exactly what I'm doing ...), but White's position in this game was not "losing" until after his SEVENTH move.
|Jun-28-07|| ||newton296: found ...nd4! like many others and liked it after Bxd5? grabbing the knight but walking into a mate. Also like ...nd4 after Nxd4 losing a rook and pawn after Bxe2 deflecting the Q from C2. but then saw that the f3 or h3 line was very solid and that black gained no more than a pawn. so I looked at the game only to see Bxd4 ? Hmm . Thats not best play as f3 is much better, making this one tough too solve if U look to deep. Funny to see so many post saying " I got it !! Yah for me !!" If u missed the f3 or h3 line I don't think u got it. sorry my friends!|
|Jun-28-07|| ||zb2cr: <eblunt>,
7. h3, Nxc3; 8. dxc3, Nf3+; 9. Bxf3, Qxd1+; 10. Kxd1, Bxf3; 11. Rh2, O-O-O+;
12. Ke1, e4 White has a clear positional disadvantage. See the previous post by <MostlyAverageJoe>.
|Jun-28-07|| ||eblunt: <zb2cr:> Don't dissagree white is better. |
What I'm getting at is the puzzle normally is to find a blockbuster winning move.
This puzzle is to find the best move available, then second guess what blunder white comes up with to allow a quick win.
Black's move is certainly a meaty agressive move, but it's no immediate matchwinner
|Jun-28-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <zb2cr: ... White has a clear positional disadvantage. See the previous post by <MostlyAverageJoe>>|
I don't think I implied advantage for the white. All my lines show advantage for black (just a bit more than a pawn's worth), but for the black nevertheless.
For a number of puzzles, I had an impression that the "best move" also has the intangible quality of being likely to produce bad response from the opponent (clearly, this happened in this game with white playing BxN). While this property is definitely not measurable, it could be considered an added value to the "best move".
|Jun-28-07|| ||patzer2: For today's puzzle, the move 6...Nd4! piles up on the pinned Knight for a Black advantage. |
Of course after 7. Bxd5 Qxd5!, White needs to avoid 8. Nxd5?? Nf3+ 9. Kf1 Bh3#.
Also instructive is the defensive resource 7. h3! for breaking the Black pin to allow White survival chances.
|Jun-28-07|| ||fm avari viraf: White seems to have lost early in the opening itself. Black's 6...Nd4 which threatens the pinned Knight on e2 as well as the f3 square which is difficult for White to handle. Even the text move seems to be futile.|
|Jun-28-07|| ||Arkanin: <MostlyAverageJoe> Considering that I'm not god or garry kasparov, in a game I need to win I'd probably much rather have a move that's 1/10th of a pawn worse than another move by a computer analysis if it comes spring-loaded with well-hidden traps ;)|
|Jun-28-07|| ||Wolfgang01: MostlyAverageJoe & matein6: I know that, and you are allowed to say fool to me 3 times (lol; all twice; lollol) but only three times!! Don't forget.|
|Jun-28-07|| ||whiteshark: <AVA: <I play this opening as white, and <4.Nge2 is bad>..the main move is <4. Bc4>, and white has an effective game against Alekhine's Defense or Scandinavian Gambit.>>|
You have been the only one, who mentioned that 4. Nge2 is a bad move.
My first thought was: <I agree>, but now I think that only <5.g3>? is a real mistake.
If 5. NxN QxN 6. Nc3 Qe5+ 7. Le2 ~=
|Jun-28-07|| ||simsan: I'm very happy today. I immediately saw ... Nd4 as the most likely initial move, but spent a long time until I saw that white couldn't take the d5 knight since the Queen sac would lead to mate.|
I thus started looking at the f3 defence. Didn't find much more than what seemed to be a weakened white king side and white being a pawn down, but decided to look at the game.
I feel I really got this one :-)
|Jun-28-07|| ||zb2cr: <MostlyAverageJoe> & <eblunt>,|
Peace. I stated that White is clearly at a disadvantage; it's not necessarily immediately decisive.
<MAJ>, I said White is at a <disadvantage>--same thing as you said, different way of stating it. I quoted your post in the interest of showing that computerized analysis backs up my own intuition that White's in trouble.
I agree with whomever said that this puzzle as given is poorly posed, as imaginative defensive moves such as 7. f3 and 7. h3 lead to a situation that is far from charming for White, yet cannot be considered immediately lost. The line as actually played out is essentially Black setting a trap for his opponent, who obligingly falls into it with 7. Bxd5.
|Jun-28-07|| ||Crowaholic: Entering dzechiel mode... ;-)
After dismissing some useless lines, I am now considering 6. ..Nd4 7. Bxd5 Nxe2 8. Nxe2 Qxd5 9. O-O Bf3
10. Nf4 Qc6 11. Qe1 g5 which looks sort of bland for White but is not really crushing.
Hmm, 8. Bxb7 doesn't make things easier for Black either. But what other move could be useful at 7? Risking a queen sac??
7. ..Qxd5 8. Nxd5 Nf3+ 9. Kf1 Bh3#
Yikes! White can't take the queen! What if the sac is declined? White must address the threat of Qxh1+ and mate. Possible moves:
8. O-O Nf3+ 9. Kh1 Ng5+ 10. Nxd5 Bf3+ 11. Kg1 Nh3#. Nice!
And if 9. Kg2 then 9. ..Nh4++ 10. Kg1 Qg2# !
If White doesn't take the Q on move 10 there is
10. Ne4 Qxe4+ 11. f3 Bxf3+ 12. Rxf3 Qxf3+ 13. Kg1 Nh3# !
So 8. O-O does not seem to be an adequate defence either.
8. Rg1, maybe? (Not Rf1 Nf3#, of course!) Well, ..Nf3+ 9. Kf1 Bh3+ 10. Rf2 Nxh2+ wins at least the rook.
The only remaining question is now whether White has better moves than 7. Bxd5. 7. O-O, for example. But then 7. ..Nxc3 8. bxc3 (or dxc3) Nxe2+ with the threat of ..Nxg3+ and ..Bxd1 decides the game.
Time to check...
Hmm, good defence by Gibbs which I should have considered. Schmid's responses are the same that I would have played, though. Not that I actually know why...
|Jun-28-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <zb2cr> Apologies for mis-reading your comment. Dunno what hit me over the head that I missed the "dis" part.|
I completely agree with your statement.
|Jun-28-07|| ||Crowaholic: Crowaholic: <MostlyAverageJoe: where black has 2 reasonably good choices (19-ply analysis):|
10. Bxf3 (-1.42)
10. O-O-O (-1.35)>
Well, the latter is of course 10. ..O-O-O+ and will be followed by 11. ..Bxf3 (unless White plays 11. Bd5 where there is 11. ..Rxd5+ or 11. ..Bf3 followed e.g. by 12. Ke1 Bxd5.
|Jun-28-07|| ||aazqua: What an atrocious opening by white. I thought this puzzle was a little odd as it "requires" a horrendous move like b*d5 to be completely convincing. Clearly black has a good advantage after any play by white, but white's play both before and after the puzzle move leaves a lot to be desired.|
|Jun-28-07|| ||artnova: What about 8.Nxd5 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 Nxe2 10.Nxc7+ Kd8 11.Nxa8|
|Oct-13-07|| ||Silverstrike: <artnova> It's a nice idea, but after 8.Nxd5 Black mates with 8...Nf3+ 9.Kf1 Bh3#|
|Jan-15-08|| ||weary willy: This is not Peter C Gibbs - I believe it is Grantel Gibbs of Hong Kong|
|Jul-04-08|| ||depraved: What weary willy says is almost certainly true- in the book International Championship Chess by Bozidar Kazic (Gasic), Gibbs is listed as playing for Hong Kong.|
|May-10-11|| ||Richard Taylor: Great little game!|
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