< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Jan-08-07|| ||wals: (notyetagain) you took the words right out of my mouth|
|Jan-08-07|| ||WarmasterKron: I quickly saw both the mates, but I think they're both more functional than pretty.|
|Jan-08-07|| ||TrueBlue: Queen sacrifice was a shlight overkill :)|
|Jan-08-07|| ||unferth: are you guys nuts? you have a chance to sac a queen and force mate, you do it ... much prettier that way. there's no way a 19th century swashbuckler like Zukertort would finish with a pedestrian bishop sac.|
|Jan-08-07|| ||artnova: 10.... Be8 and no problem|
|Jan-08-07|| ||Albertan: This game was one played in a fourteen- game match between these two players in 1865. At the time Zukertort was 23 years of age and Anderssen was 47. The match was won by Zukertort by a score of 10-4. Anderssen won 3 of the first four games of the match:the first with White (A King's Gambit Accepted),in the second Anderssen also played white and lost (again the opening was a King's Gambit Accepted). The third game of the match was again won by Anderssen who was white (another King's Gambit accepted).The fourth game of the match was won by Anderssen (he played the Berlin Defense as Black against Zukertort's Ruy Lopez and won in 30 moves). The fifth game of the match was a draw (another King's Gambit Accepted Zukertort was white). Zukertort won the sixth game of the match (and he went on to win 7 of the remaining 8 games of the match (the other game was drawn).
It must be noted that before this match with Zukertort,Anderssen had played matches against Mayet (which he won 5.5-2.5), and Neumann (Neumann won 15.5-12.5),and then Anderssen played another match with Knorre (before he played the match with Zukertort) and Anderssen won that match 3-1.|
According to Chessbase data all the of the games that took place at Berlin between Anderssen and these other players occurred on January 8,1865. Logically,with so many games being played the same day we must believe that this tournament was a blitz tournament of some kind.
|Jan-09-07|| ||Fisheremon: <artnova: 10.... Be8 and no problem> 11.Bg5+ hxg5 12.Qg5+ Kd7 13.Qf5+ Ke7 14.Qe6#, but 10...Qc8 could save. Sac 8.Nxf7 was not correct, 8...Kxf7 9.Bc4+ Ke7? (Ke8 could give Black some advantage).|
|Jan-09-07|| ||Marco65: <Fisheremon> 10...Qc8 11.Qxg6 and White can be more than satisfied (maybe not a forced win but imo)|
After 9...Ke8 10.Qh5 Qf6 11.f4 exd4 (best try) 12.f5 dxc3 13.bxc3! and White takes back the piece with advantage (also 13.Qxg6+ Qxg6 14.fxg6 cxb2 15.Bxb2 should give White a lot of compensation for a pawn)
If Black wants to try and keep the piece he should venture for 9...d5 making room for the king in d6 as nuwanda and I proposed earlier.
|Jan-09-07|| ||Fisheremon: <Marco65: <Fisheremon> |
After 9...Ke8 10.Qh5 Qf6 11.f4 exd4 (best try) 12.f5 dxc3 13.bxc3! and White takes back the piece with advantage (also 13.Qxg6+ Qxg6 14.fxg6 cxb2 15.Bxb2 should give White a lot of compensation for a pawn)> 13.bxc3 (! as you marked, since Nxc3 lost) Nce5 14.Be2 Qh4 and Black has excellent position.
Certainly better 13.Qxg6+ with an equal game.
|Jan-09-07|| ||madlydeeply: Sooo...why does Anderssen get all the credit for being a tactical wizard...looks like Johnny Sugarpie was just as tactical...|
|Jan-10-07|| ||Marco65: <Fisheremon> 9...Ke8 10.Qh5 Qf6 11.f4 exd4 12.f5 dxc3 13.bxc3! Nce5 I though 14.fxg6 attacking the queen was enough, but only now I see the complications after 14...Bg4! 15.Qxg4[15.Rxf6 Bxh5 16.Bf7+ Nxf7 17.gxf7 Bxf7 ] 15...Qxf1+ 16.Kxf1 Nxg4 17.Bf7+ Kd8 18.Bf4. The evaluation is unclear to me, White has two pieces for a rook but worse pawn structure.|
All very interesting, I wish I had an engine to check these variations.
Anderssen must have had his brain disconnected that day, but I guess Zukertort saw this and much more...
|Jan-10-07|| ||Fisheremon: <Marco65: <Fisheremon> 9...Ke8 10.Qh5 Qf6 11.f4 exd4 12.f5 dxc3 13.bxc3! Nce5 I though 14.fxg6 attacking the queen was enough, but only now I see the complications after 14...Bg4! 15.Qxg4[15.Rxf6 Bxh5 16.Bf7+ Nxf7 17.gxf7 Bxf7 ] 15...Qxf1+ 16.Kxf1 Nxg4 17.Bf7+ Kd8 18.Bf4. The evaluation is unclear to me, White has two pieces for a rook but worse pawn structure.> The best on 17th should be 17.Be6, since 17.Bf7+ Kd7. Also you might confuse: Black won the exchange (you might forget Bishop f8 ?!).|
|Jan-10-07|| ||Marco65: <Fisheremon> I prefer (after 9...Ke8 10.Qh5 Qf6 11.f4 exd4 12.f5 dxc3 13.bxc3?! Nce5 14.fxg6 Bg4 15.Qxg4 Qxf1+ 16.Kxf1 Nxg4) 17.Bf7+ Kd7 (you're right, better than Kd8) 18.Bf4 to exchange the knight if it goes to the strong e5 outpost. Rather than 17.Be6 Ne5 18.Bf5 when the bishop looks like a tall pawn.|
Useless discussion anyway, because you're right: <Black won the exchange>! After 9 moves made in my mind I'm getting to my (poor) limits
13.bxc3 deserves a ?! at this point.
|Jan-10-07|| ||Fisheremon: <Marco65: After 9 moves made in my mind I'm getting to my (poor) limits> Have my admiration to your memory anyway ! <13.bxc3 deserves a ?! at this point.> I'm intending to mark 8.Nxf7?! Ke7? and 10...Qe8?? for that our discussion !|
|Jan-10-07|| ||Marco65: <Fisheremon> Like me, it seems you like such analyses more than solving the puzzle itself!|
I would mark 8.Nxf7? because while our lines were complex 9...d5 10.Bxd5+ Ke7 11.Qh4 Be8 still seems a good and simple refutation of the sacrifice to me
|Jan-10-07|| ||Fisheremon: <Marco65: <Fisheremon> Like me, it seems you like such analyses more than solving the puzzle itself!> Yeah, actually I like a non-standard solution of the problem, then I try to enter so far to the game itself. Thanks anyway and let's have a see with other games !|
|Jan-10-07|| ||JYMMI: I saw Bg5+ hxg Qxg5|
|Jan-11-07|| ||dakgootje: Noted needs to be it's in the database aswell as Zukertort vs Anderssen, 1865|
|Sep-07-07|| ||Dilbertarian: Crafty sees 8.Nxf7? as weak, because of Kxf7. 9.Bc4+, Ke8! 10. Qh5, Qf6. 11. f4, exd4. 12. f5, dxc3. 13. Qxg6 (fxg6 ? cxb2!) Qxg6. 14. fxg6, cxb2 and Black is better off.|
So the gem is basically flawed!
|Mar-19-10|| ||Antiochus: Chessgames.com
The same thing happened in this duplicate game Zukertort vs Anderssen, 1865
|Aug-13-10|| ||Antiochus: This famous game Steinitz vs G Neumann, 1870
is repeated here
Zukertort vs Anderssen, 1865 .
Two twins in the notable area.
|May-24-11|| ||Llawdogg: Wow! Holy Cow!|
|Jun-11-11|| ||Antiochus: Best version of the same game Zukertort vs Anderssen, 1865|
|Jun-21-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:
Zukertort vs Anderssen, 1865.
YOU ARE PLAYING THE ROLE OF ZUKERTORT.
Your score: 18 (par = 17)
|Aug-15-12|| ||Bezlitosci: Impressive that a player like Anderssen could make a blunder like 10...e8, allowing mate in two|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·