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|Dec-12-07|| ||zenpharaohs: MostlyAverageJoe: "Sigh, another puzzle where the losing side commits a suicide, when all that should've happened was a gain of one pawn + totally messed up black pawn structure.|
In the end, I am not even sure whether Nxe5 is superior to Nxf6, which also wins a pawn. I supppose it is, since it sets up a virtually irresistible trap.
I started with the exact line as played in the game, then looked for any escapes by the black."
Yes. It's quite hard to do puzzles if you are going to expect your opponent to shoot himself.
I think 9 Nxf6+ is slightly better. If 9 Nxe5 then you let black choose whether he keeps the bishop.
The one thing I understood when looking at this position was that the queen was poisoned.
|Dec-12-07|| ||zenpharaohs: MostlyAverageJoe: "My initial thought was this was a bad puzzle, with ambiguous solution. However, the transpositions indicate that with the best play, there is no difference between 9. Nxf6+ and 9. Nxe5."|
Whoa. I better fire up Rybka.
At 17 plies it looks like the two lines do end up as transpositions.
|Dec-12-07|| ||MaxxLange: I gave up on this line after seeing 10...Kf8. I did not see 11. Ned7+, winning. A fail for me today! I usually get Wednesdays, harumph.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||HelaNubo: <tallinn: Those where the days when a queen sacrifice was never declined. Like what Paris must have thought as he took Helena: "He will mate my king, but I will have fun with his queen before.">
LOL! Interesting to imagine, what must have thought the king himself and all other Trojans as they were killed, provided that - unlike Paris - they had no real fun with Menelaus' wife.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||mkrk17: I too didnt get it...not expecting black to play the wrong moves.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||Valen: I think the position is not clear after= 9. Nxe5 dxe5 10. Nxf6+ gxf6 11. Qxg4 etc|
|Dec-12-07|| ||MorganV2851: OK: am i crazy:
i know this isnt the right move, but, is bh6 possible (as the answer to the puzzle)?? i didnt use a computer, but, in my mind it is getting at least a pawn... check it out! its very complicated (unless someone can refute it)...
maybe i was working to hard for nothing, always gotta check the queen sacs : /
|Dec-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <MorganV2851: ... is bh6 possible (as the answer to the puzzle)?>|
Only if black plays gxh6 in response. However:
9. Bh6 Nexd5
and white is a piece down (can win the g7 pawn, though).
No computer needed :-)
|Dec-12-07|| ||MaxxLange: yes, MAJ, I looked at that idea (Bh6?) too|
|Dec-12-07|| ||ellhares: 9.×e5 is the losing move for white black can simply answer 9...×D5 and black is a peice up, the right move by white is 9. ×F6! and white is a pawn up and with very good position.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||ellhares: < MorganV2851: OK:> <am i crazy: but, is bh6 possible (as the answer to the puzzle)?? i didnt use a computer, but, in my mind it is getting at least a pawn... check it out! its very complicated (unless someone can refute it)...>
h6?? its not crazy and not complicated my friend its simply a losing move for white ! black simply
play ×D5 and black wins!
|Dec-12-07|| ||wouldpusher: Nice variant of Legal Trap! However, instead of biting the queen, Black could have been contented in being a pawn down and ceding the better pawn structure plus bishop pair to White. Two good solutions would be 9. xf6+ gxf6 10. xe5 e6 11. xe6 dxe5 12. c4 and 9. xe5 exd5 10. xg4 b6 11. xf6+ gxf6 12. b3 in which both don't look good for Black. An interesting line to consider would be 9. xe5 exd5 10. xg4 h5 11. h6 gxh6 12. exd5 |
|Dec-12-07|| ||zb2cr: <ellhares>,
You wrote: "9.N×e5 is the losing move for white black can simply answer 9...N×D5 and black is a peice up..."
No, my friend, you've forgotten something.
9. Nxe5, Nxd5; 10. Nxg4 and Black is NOT a piece up. Again, White's gained a Pawn. See the computer-verified analysis posted by <MostlyAverageJoe> above. Your suggested line is given in his post as [C].
|Dec-12-07|| ||UdayanOwen: I don't think there is anything wrong with tactical puzzles in which best defence leads only to an extra pawn and some positional gain. These gains are only made possible by the tactical possibilities inherent in the position IF black plays 9...Bxd1, and if you can calculate all this and win a pawn as a result, then it is good tactics. |
Its good training to see pawn wins that are based on more extravagant tactical points. Often such opportunities will come up in games. If I could gather a pawn and some positional gains with a sham queen sacrafice in a game, In most cases I'd choose this over some move that simply improves the position slightly. Anyway, all these tactical possibilities are very thematic so its good training.
I also don't agree that a puzzle should have a single solution... in real games there will often be more than one way to win material, and you have to calculate the nuances of each possibility to work out which one leads to the best outcome.
|Dec-12-07|| ||cyruslaihy: i remember a similar opening trap with mate with knight giving mate on d5 with another N on e5+ B on f7, f8 is black's own bishop and d8 is black's queen|
i think it goes like this 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 Bc4 h6 4 Nc3 Bg4 5 Nxe5 Bxd8 6 Bxf7+ Ke7 Nd5 mate
think its probably played by alekhine against NN (i'm sure its NN, can't remember whos white )
|Dec-12-07|| ||johnlspouge: The 2-ply brain does not suffice today. The solution requires recall of both of breaking the pin on the against the and then remembering something like the final position in the critical line|
click for larger view
9.xf6 gxf6 10.xe5 xd1 11.xf7+ f8 12.h6#
To avoid this line, Black's actual play should lose a pawn:
9.xf6 gxf6 10.xe5 retreats
Horrors! The game followed the critical line. Timman certainly wasn't playing Black today.
|Dec-12-07|| ||awfulhangover: I selected Nxf6 too ...|
|Dec-12-07|| ||johnlspouge: After 9.xe5, if the response to 10.xf6 (as in the actual game line, not the transposition from 9.xf6 I gave) is not gxf, I saw complications extricating the White . I also vote for 9.xf6 as the simpler alternative.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||ahmadov: Great! I found this one because I was familiar with the Legal mate...|
|Dec-12-07|| ||goodevans: Seems to me that all the discussion about there being no clear solution today misses the point a bit. Anyone who spotted that the combination of Nxf6+ and Nxe5 wins material through a mating trap can say they’ve solved the puzzle today.|
As to which is the best order, it’s largely personal preference whether you wish to restrict black’s possible responses (9 Nxf6+ does this) or obscure the trap to maximum effect (9 Nxe5 does this). I chose 9 Nxf6+, and back in my playing days I think I’d have done the same.
|Dec-12-07|| ||Kings Indian: I got this in 0.1 nanoseconds. No joke. I just was looking at this game in The Art Of Attack :P|
|Dec-12-07|| ||JG27Pyth: I have no issue with Nxf6+ vs. Nxe5... but a puzzle should be against best defense not a robotic he-offered-his-queen-I-must-take-it that doesn't take into account the rather obvious defensive resources (and when someone offers you his queen, don't ya look around a little? Maybe say, hmmm... might be a forcing line here I ought to avoid... let's see now...) |
If black plays accurately he ends up a pawn down with a busted up king-side, but IMO with enough complexity left to keep playing for a draw.
So, the question is, does white get enough against best defense for this puzzle to be called 'solveable'? (And it's not sour grapes, I found the "solution.")
IMO, yes, ok, but not for a Wednesday. Not for medium-easy. Easy should be less ambiguous than this, shouldn't it?
|Dec-12-07|| ||zb2cr: Hi <JG27Pyth>,
Not sure I agree with your statement that "...a puzzle should be against best defense not a robotic he-offered-his-queen-I-must-take-it ...".
These are actual games, not composed puzzles. And over the board, (or even correspondence) all kinds of psychological factors arise. Most of us, in our own games, can point to places where we came to grief by trying to be clever; and we can point to places where we came to grief by being too quick to grab. Let's face it, when a large potential advantage is offered, the tendency is to grab after only a superficial analysis. That's because we ARE human, not robotic; we have lapses in attention, we get annoyed at the opponent, or we just want to get the game over--the whole catalog.
|Dec-12-07|| ||TheEnterprise: I missed it. Didn't even think of sacrificing the Queen. Oh well : / 2/3|
|Dec-12-07|| ||johnlspouge: <zb2cr: Much easier than the Web page suggests--a variant on Legal's Mate.>|
I had forgotten the name of the mate. Thanks for the little piece of culture, zb2cr.
I have mixed feelings about having a clean puzzle. On one hand, I would like to get out of the house expeditiously in the morning. (I do not know how on earth I am going to handle Thursdays and Fridays!) Clean solutions would certainly make life easy, eliminate the need for second-guessing, and get me out of the house. On the other hand, like life, chess is rarely clean, and dealing with a puzzle's uncertainties (besides requiring a philosophy) forces me to stand by my convictions. After all, in a real game, eventually I do have to make a move!
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