< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
|Dec-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Kings Indian: I got this in 0.1 nanoseconds.>|
So slow? My hamster got it in 99 picoseconds, with all variations of the best play by the black. In fact, my previous posts are just transcriptions of his squeaking into algebraic notation.
|Dec-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <ellhares: 9.N×e5 is the losing move for white black can simply answer 9...N×D5 and black is a peice up>|
haha my friend ur mistaken a 1200 elo player can see in 10 seconds that 1 more move and black will be a pawn down not a peice up!!
|Dec-12-07|| ||kevin86: I missed the Legal mate but came up with a good combination:|
9 xf6+ gxf6 10 xf7+ xf7 11 xe5+ dxe5 12 xg4 and white gains two pawns.
ote that after 9... dxe5 10 xf6+ gxf6 11 xg4 transposes into my above position.
I claim full credit for this one as the best move by black would have gotten him into my position. Instead,he erred and fell into the Legal.
|Dec-12-07|| ||kevin86: Oops,I miscounted trump on this one. Obviously,after further review,my variation would have lost a piece for two pawns-a bad move by white. |
I left it out there as a lesson to someone else who thought as I did.
A big dunce cap for me :(
|Dec-12-07|| ||twin phoenix: I'm not sure if i got this puzzle or not. i transposed 9. Nxe5 and 10. Nxf6. I wanted to play 9.Nxf6 first and then follow it up with 10. Nxe5. here black can't accept the queen as in the game and if 10.--,dxN (or fxN) 11. QxB(g4). this only nets a pawn, however, so the text line is certainly better. i overlooked the same line of play as Maxlange above. which is why i thought this move order was correct.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||TheaN: 3/3
As pointed out, 9.Nxe5 leads to a line which should win a pawn, only due to Black it went to mate.
9.Nxe5! is a possible move, where the capture of the sacced Queen leads to loss of a piece or mate. I have to admit that I completely overlooked the possible Nxc5, back on that later.
9....Bxd1 10.Nxf6+! Kf8 (gxf6? 11.Bxf7+ Kf8 12.Bh6# as ingame) 11.Nfd7+ (any N is possible, but said move leaves a nice trap for any K move, where Ned7 does not (forced Qxd7)) Qxd7 (Ke8/g8? 12.Bxf7#) 12.Nxd7+ Kf8 13.Nxc5 (which I've overlooked (would have played OTB as it's so obvious, I played 13.Rxd1 immediately, with the advantage White should gain when the sac is not accepted)) and Black loses a piece effectively as Be2 doesn't work.
It's the decline in which I think 9.Nxe5 and 9.Nxf6 differ. After 9.Nxe5, Black can do mutiple things:
9....dxe5 leaves Black with doubled pawns and one down: 10.Nxf6+ gxf6 (Kf8 11.Nxg4 ) 11.Qxg4 . Here 9.Nxf6 differs as Black can capture with f after 9....gxf6 10.Nxe5 fxe5 11.Qxg4 .
9....Nexd5 10.Nxg4 with a comfortable game for White with the Bishop pair.
9....Be6, however, doesn't seem as healthy either! 10.Nxf6+ gxf6 (Kf8 11.Bxe6 where Black will once again lose a piece due to the d7-fork at the c5 B, no matter which piece he takes, if he doesn't, White can retreat two and thus win one) 11.Bxe6 fxe5 (fxe6? 12.Qh5 Ng6 13.Nxg6 ) 12.Bh3 .
|Dec-12-07|| ||JG27Pyth: BTW. 10...gxf6? isn't accurate either. After 10...Kf8 11.Ned7+ Qxd7 12.Nxd7+ Ke8 etc. Black will be down a N, and lost... but not mated. Crikey, black self-mates here.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||playground player: Every chess player should know Legal's Mate. It only took me 50 years to discover it.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||YouRang: I had about the same experience as <dzechiel>. It sort of smelled like Legal's mate, but not quite. |
So I settled for 9. Nxf6+ gxf6 10. Nxe5! fxe5 (or dxe5) followed by 11. Qxg4 (or, if black falls for 10...Bxd1 then 11. Bxf7+ Kf8 12. Bh6#) winning a pawn and leaving black with a somewhat tattered position. Perhaps black would be better off saving his bishop with 10...Be6 or 10...Bd7, but then of course I have time to save my knight, and I'm still up a pawn.
I had some doubts that this was as good as it got, but I couldn't find a way to force the mate. Of course, I see now that the mate wasn't forced anyway.
|Dec-12-07|| ||nimzo knight: I got it, I m pretty glad about it. I could see Legal's situation here. Finding Bh6 was the biggy. I don't think I could have got it OTB|
|Dec-12-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: We know that beginning with white’s 9th move, he will win material.
So where did black go wrong, was it move 8 … Ne7?
It looks like that if he had played Na5 or Nxd5 or even O-O on move eight he would have been okay.
|Dec-12-07|| ||A.G. Argent: <zb2cr>
I agree with your taking exception to the robotic v human issue struck by JG27Pyth. And there ain't no rules with the puzzles. Shouldn't be. All the more challenging. Keeps us alert, dontcha know. And impetuous, highly ill-advised moves are gonna happen for whatever reasons, sweat dripping in his eye, whatever, but E. Hall should have been a LITTLE more wary, I would think. Sure a queen for a bishop is a major temptation but with Nxe5, there was all of a sudden, a fair amount of material bearing down on an uncastled king. In this case, said Hall deserved his knuckle-rapping checkmate. Bet it never happened to him again. Ah, chess.
|Dec-12-07|| ||zb2cr: <A.G. Argent>,
Thanks for your statement. I agree, we all should be wary at all times over the chessboard. Sometimes, we're not. That's when the action normally relegated to the annotation pops out and embarrasses us, just as E. Hall was embarrased in this game.
|Dec-12-07|| ||CaptGeorge: Medium/Easy About even positions.
Double attack on d5N, soon triple!
Q Pin on f3N
Swap N and open black pawns
9. Nxf3 gxf3
This should be enough for white to win game, but I don't see any mate combinations from here.
After reviewing the actual game, I'd say white got lucky to win with this line. Nothing is forced from move 9.
|Dec-12-07|| ||whitebeach: <Jimfromprovidence: We know that beginning with white’s 9th move, he will win material. So where did black go wrong, was it move 8 … Ne7? |
It looks like that if he had played Na5 or Nxd5 or even O-O on move eight he would have been okay.>
8 . . . Ne7 sure looks like the lemon. I think immediately get rid of the dominant white N with 8 . . . Nxd5. If then 9. exd5 Ne7 doesn't seem so bad. If 9. Bxd5 then 0-0 or maybe even Be6. Both seem playable--not great, but certainly not losing.
|Dec-12-07|| ||Ercan: Chess is realy great game!...|
|Dec-12-07|| ||dabearsrock1010: i missed it however unlike some users i think the difficulty level was accurate and i just suck at chess|
|Dec-12-07|| ||carelessfills: not sure if this is really a Legal's mate. It's similar though. Legal's mate usually has Black's king's bishop and knight both still on their home squares, and white's QN on c3. Then, after the sacrifice of the queen, White mates with Bxf7+ Ke7 and Nd5++.|
For instance in the Philidor the simplest form is: 1 e4 e5, 2 Nf3 d6, 3 Nc3 c6, 4 Bc4 Bg5?, 5 Nxe5 Bxd1, 6 Bxf7+ Ke2, 7 Nd5++.
|Dec-12-07|| ||zb2cr: <carelessfills>,
I brought up the similarity to Legal's mate--I believe the phrase I used was "a variant of Legal's mate." Believe me, I wasn't claiming this was the original or classical version.
|Dec-12-07|| ||DukeAlba: I went for 9. Nxf6+, because the Legal-like mate looked suspicious in that it wasn't forced. I liked how white won material with Nxf6+.|
Although I had seen the Legal Mate I didn't think it would be the move (I guess I'm biased since I know that I would not have taken the queen).
The confusing part is that in other puzzles a move that leads into a trap is not always the best move.... but that's more like Friday, Saturday, Sunday puzzles, even some Thursdays... today is Tuesday...
|Dec-12-07|| ||zb2cr: <DukeAlba>,
You wrote: "...today is Tuesday...".
Are you feeling well? It's Wednesday.
|Dec-12-07|| ||newzild: I went for 9.Nxf6+ and if 9...gf then 10.Nxe5 threatening 11.Bxf7+ Kf8 12.Bh6 mate. So black must play 10...fe (or 10...de) and white takes the bishop with his queen, coming out a pawn up.
I still think this is the best line, because the mate in the game is not forced. E Hall must have been a 1200 elo player to fall for that. Duffer!|
|Dec-12-07|| ||AccDrag: With an extra P, the 2 Bs and a better P-structure, White is winning. So I say it's solved.|
|Dec-12-07|| ||WarmasterKron: I went for 9.Nxf6 followed by 10.Nxe5, as it seems trivially more forcing, even though the two lines transpose.|
True, White ultimately wins a pawn with a better pawn structure, but I don't see this as a flaw. There's a tactical possiblity in the position, so the aim of the puzzle is to find it. The front page says "White to play", not "White to play and win" or "White to play, mate in x".
|Dec-12-07|| ||DukeAlba: <zb2cr> HAHAHA that's right LOL! Yeah I guess I'm slowly losing it! Hehehe.|
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