< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|May-13-06|| ||jahhaj: Missed this one. I was looking for ways to trap the queen but I didn't consider Qd2. Never seen a queen trapped like that before.|
|May-13-06|| ||doglikegroove: A few comments here:
a) I agree with <numbersguy70> in principle, although not with his tone. All-caps and flaptrap go over like a lead balloon on these boards.
b) I'm sorry, <OBIT>, but if these moves aren't forced as we all seem to agree, then what black did is the apotheosis of a blunder.
Didn't have to do it
+ Um, where'd my queen go
c) I can only assume that <numbersguy70>'s tone is what's causing the usually very intelligent people on this board to argue that black had to lose his queen and resign, otherwise he would have been down a knight.
d) Everytime I've ever been to one of these boards, the posted philosophy has <always> been that it's not about getting the first move, it's about seeing the line. Sorry <Zaius>.
d) As for what else black could have done that would have been better than, um, let's see, trowing away the entire game, I would start with <builttospill>'s question.
e) What about 11..Qxd4
|May-13-06|| ||jperr75108: Does anyone know who Booth is?|
|May-13-06|| ||ppm: The puzzle should have been:
The board position at the end of white's 9th move with the comment "Evaluate (9)...Nxd4".
It would have reduced some of the above ego tussle :)
|May-13-06|| ||beenthere240: <doglikegroove> your e suggestion 11. .. Qxd4 is busted by 12 Bb5 + winning the queen. The puzzle is that black tried to steal a pawn by what he thought was a clever combination, but white found the hole in it.|
|May-13-06|| ||OBIT: <doglikegroove> Eh, I don't know... it seems to me Black's best chance to win this game is to hope White can't find a way to trap the queen. Playing a piece down against a decent opponent isn't going to save too many. |
Now, if my opponent's demeanor suggests to me he very definitely sees the crusher, and I think I can still outplay this guy, even a piece down (and, Gawd, how'd I get into this mess against this chump, anyway?), I suppose I play on minus the piece. On the other hand, if my buddies are looking to go out for pizza or my girl friend is there in shorts and a halter top, then dragging out a piece down endgame, only to lose anyway, can only create tension between me and my buddies/girl friend - quite pointless, given the circumstances. In short, I think this is the time to roll the dice.
The real issue in this game is opening preparation. Only 9 moves have been played, and none of White's moves should have been remotely surprising to Black. I was thinking this must be a game between two mediocre club players, but, checking the bio on Fazekas, I see he was in fact an IM. Geez... there is just no excuse for 9...Nxd4??
|May-13-06|| ||dakgootje: Great puzzle where i got the idea, but completely missed the final move =)|
|May-13-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: To me this was an extremely simple puzzle. (For a Saturday, I got it pretty quickly, probably well under a minute.) |
White goes ahead and take the Knight. (10.???)
Two lines: Taking on e5 was easy to refute. Be3 of even Kf1. (So if Black takes on d4, the discovered check wins the Queen.)
The other line was to try and trap the Queen, which also was pretty straight-forward.
But thanks CG.com for the mental workout, it was nice to solve a Saturday problem ... for a change.
|May-13-06|| ||Zaius: <doglikegroove>
Um yeah. It's about seeing the line - THE WINNING LINE. You know, best play for white, then best pay for black, then best play for white, etc...
It's not about seeing the PLAYED line, it's about seeing the WINNING line. and the winning line does not involve black making a blunder. Sorry <doglikegroove>
|May-13-06|| ||Zaius: Furthermore, doglikegroove you need to remember that <numbersguy70>'s entire point is that the puzzle has a solution that requires black to screw up.|
How does it require black to screw up? Black can play something other than was played in the game which was a less than optimal move for black. And it would still qualify to be a line!
I can already see <numbersguy70> scrolling through white's 10th move, getting it wrong, then looking at black's 10th move, realizing it is not black's best move and then whining about the puzzle, not because he didn't get the solution, but for another reason (black didn't play his best 10th move).
|May-13-06|| ||Sneaky: There is a moral to today's puzzle: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.|
|May-13-06|| ||technical draw: Better yet: Don't look in any horses mouth.|
|May-13-06|| ||blingice: <numbersguy70: LAME!!! WHAT KIND OF PUZZLE HAS A SOLUTION THAT REQUIRES THE OTHER SIDE TO SCREW UP?!?!?>|
<Tariqov: <blingice>The good advanced puzzles are normally not forced moves,that would make it easy like monday and tuesday which are normally forced move puzzles.>
But the point is is that such puzzles aren't necessarily easy. It isn't a Monday puzzle when you have to find a mate in nine, or when you give your opponent few options to stop the attack. In this case, there were soooo many options, one being that he didn't take the pawn with his knight to begin with, because apparently, he calculated it out to only two or four ply.
<Ashram64: <Blingice>... after Nxd4, how else would black regain its materials? Queen check was the only way to gain back some short term materials or just play this game with one piece down.>
That's exactly why I was saying Fazekas was being doltish by making a sacrifice that was only sound in under 4 ply...
|May-13-06|| ||beenthere240: I wouldn't be surprised if black found 10...Nxd4 during pre tournament home preparation and thought he had discovered a opening novelty. I imagine he had analyzed something like 10..Bd2 where he picks up the knight and remains a pawn ahead. c3 probably came as a complete surprise.|
|May-13-06|| ||blingice: <Zaius: "ask you" instead of "as you"|
<numberguys70> How about you tell us a better move for white on move 10, since you say this answer is bogus. Go on, tell us a better move than 10. Nxd4>
Ok, fine, I suppose we'll accept that 10. Nxd4 is best, but Qc3 DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW. If black realized that he had just blundered, and actually looked at the line slightly longer and saw that he couldn't regain his knight, he wouldn't have lost his queen for the rook either, because he wouldn't have moved Qc3. Rather, he could be like, "Oops, I'm not going to make this a stupid puzzle, and make a developing move, and try to recover. I'm down two pawns, but the game isn't done."
<Zaius: Black can play something other than was played in the game which was a less than optimal move for black. And it would still qualify to be a line!>
<Zaius: It's not about seeing the PLAYED line, it's about seeing the WINNING line. and the winning line does not involve black making a blunder.>
Are you on acid? You MUST be hallucinating if you think Qxa1 isn't a blunder.
|May-13-06|| ||Zaius: <blingice> Uh what? Qxa1? Where did that even come from? Did you really miss the part where I said the played line isn't what's asked about in the puzzle?|
When there is a puzzle on the front page and it asks you for white's move. Your job is simple: Find what white's best move would be. Sometimes (rarely) the best move for white wasn't even played! <chessgames.com> will come in here and tell us about it.
The point is that the solution for the puzzle is the best move for white. Black's reply to that move is irrelevant to the solution of the puzzle. It is of educational value for you to figure out what the theoretical best line (best play for both players) would be from that move on, but again, the solution to the puzzle is white's best move. And there is only one such move: Nxd4
Whether black goes on to blunder after that move, is black's problem, not the puzzle's.
|May-13-06|| ||CitricAcid13: The answer to 11. ...Qxd4, is Bb5+, enough said. Someone posted the question earlier.|
|May-13-06|| ||numbersguy70: Well, I apologize if I truly OFFENDED anyone with my frank and emotional comment, but not if I just ruffled your feathers. I wanted my frustration with this puzzle communicated, and it looks like I was successful.|
10...Nxe5 is the best move for Black, though if he sacked the knight the move prior I don't expect him to see that. I never said that 10. NxN wasn't the best move for White. I assume puzzle solutions are a definite winning line. After 10 ... Nxe5, white is ahead, but the game is not over. That's why I said the puzzle was lame.
I want to express at this point that I value the efforts of those that administer this website and those that contribute to it. Yes I disapproved of this puzzle. I still do. That is a needle in what I consider a very large and successful haystack, though.
|May-14-06|| ||blingice: <Zaius> You are completely misinterpreting the meaning of these puzzles are. If the mission is to find what is the most solid move in 1 ply, there is no point to the puzzle. The point of this puzzle was "If you played Nxd4 in this game, the follow up would probably be Qc3+, I save my knight, he'd fall into my Bengalese Tiger Trap, and I take his queen." That is what the puzzles are asking: once you make the best move, how does black respond, and how do you continue the attack? You apparently think that making the shortest-possible term move that is "best" is the solution to the puzzle. Under that definition, in a position like|
click for larger view
with white to move, the best move is OBVIOUSLY Qxd7, because it wins material within 1 ply. We should ignore black's follow-up, because it's irrelavant to what the "best" move is, shouldn't we?
|May-14-06|| ||Zaius: <blingice> I sincerely hope you're kidding when you interpret my point to be what is white's best move within 1 ply. Please tell me you're kidding. You can't be that dense.|
We should ignore what black followed up IN THE GAME. We should only take into account what black's best move would be next, not black's played move. And so if black happened to blunder IN THE GAME IN QUESTION that is irrelevant.
You should only take into account best play for as many plys as you want for both sides.
<numberguys70>'s problem was that black went on to blunder IN THE GAME. And I said that is irrelevant since when you calculate the best move for white on move 10, you calculate it (like you calculate all best moves) assuming best play on black's part too!
|May-14-06|| ||blingice: So then we aren't really learning anything if in the game played the proper variation wasn't shown, and <CG.com> didn't give us the right variation. So, people have no clue how to play black's side better! You still don't really "solve" a Saturday problem because you can see that taking a free knight is best. You have to solve the follow up. Since no optimal follow up was given by <CG.com> (unless I have missed it), the "solution" is what Booth played.|
|May-14-06|| ||Zaius: I'm glad we are starting to be on the same page <blingice> Yes I agree that perhaps if <CG.com> had provided us with the best play variation it would have made the puzzle more educational.|
It is obvious the played moves were not optimal. However, I am just glad to get a daily puzzle, so I don't mind that <CG.com> isn't providing us with the correct line for black. I have come to rely on the great membership here to usually provide me with the best play line when the game isn't adequate for that.
|May-28-06|| ||patzer2: Black's 9...Nxd4?? is punished with a not-so-obvious recapture, allowing Black a double attack to "win the exchange" -- but at the cost of trapping and losing the Queen.|
|Dec-02-17|| ||Stonehenge: Different game score here:
1. d4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. Bd3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Nxd4 10. Nxd4 Qc3+ 11. Qd2 Qxa1 12. O-O Ne7 13. c3 Nc6 14. Nb3 1-0
|Dec-02-18|| ||whiteshark: Lost in Booth's Void|
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