< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Aug-03-04|| ||Whitehat1963: Is today Wednesday or Thursday? |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Knight13: <Whitehat1963> Tuesday. Not Wednesday or Thursday. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||nikolaas: What about 47.Nh5 |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Knight13: <nikolaas> That's the move I thought first. But some how the answer to that is wrong. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Whitehat1963: Knight13, then how come it felt like Thursday? |
|Aug-03-04|| ||nikolaas: < Knight13: <nikolaas> That's the move I thought first. But some how the answer to that is wrong. > How? |
|Aug-03-04|| ||acirce: 47.Nh5 works perfectly, as does 47.c4. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||rover: <Bare rook against bare bishop is a draw in theory, but suprisingly often a decision in practice. In 1/4 of practical such endings the rook prevails.>|
I'm really surprised by that becouse the drawing technique is quite simple.
Unlike R+R vs R+B which I hear is quite difficult and R+B vs R which I'm not even sure if is a draw or a win (I heard both).
I think part of the reason might be that we have a skewed sample. Often with R+P vs B the stronger side will simplify to a won R vs B ending as in Lisitin-Tal, 1954. Here the king is already in the wrong corner, not becouse of the defender's bad technique, but becouse it has to stop the pawn. White sacrifices the pawn at the right moment to reach a won R vs B ending.
But if you set up R vs B endings with defender to move I think over 90% would be a draw.
|Aug-03-04|| ||rover: That is Lisitsin vs Tal, 1954 |
|Aug-03-04|| ||acirce: <I think part of the reason might be that we have a skewed sample.> That IS the reason. No player above amateur level has any trouble whatsoever drawing normal B vs R positions. It's much easier than even N vs R which is also pretty easy. I began looking through the decisive R vs B games in the Endgame Explorer and they are almost all like the game you described or similar. Leko vs Kramnik, 2001 is an exception where Leko was outplayed by Kramnik's marvellous technique... or, to be honest, he lost on time. :-) |
|Aug-03-04|| ||acirce: Black blunders badly near the end of L Gonda vs C Paci, 2001 that should also have been a draw |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Stella Mar: EXCELLENT!!! |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Knight13: <nikolaas: < Knight13: <nikolaas> That's the move I thought first. But some how the answer to that is wrong. > How?> What I mean here is, I've tried Qe8+ first. Then Knight h5. Then I looked at the solution, but, it is different. That's what I mean "some how the answer to that is wrong." |
|Aug-03-04|| ||nikolaas: <Knight13> That's better. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Gypsy: <rover, acirce> The statistic is from a different and, presumably, more complete database. Without a doubt, initial position plays a key role. The situation is suprisingly quite similar to R vs. N (25% against B vs. 27% against N), where the initial difficult position often arises bacause of an underpromotion ->N+, to prevent an immediate mate. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||kevin86: It must be "fork week". I saw the first few moves,but didn't see the queen loan and return by the fork.|
Strange,an exchange advantage is often drawn without pawns,but with both side having pawns,it is most often won.
|Aug-03-04|| ||vsaikaley: I also saw Nh5 as working but the reply ...Be4 will hold for black. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||notyetagm: Damn it, I saw the Qg6+ Bg7 Qxg7+ Kxg7 Nf5+ Kg6 Nxd4 exd4 part but like many others I now erred by 51 Rd2, which allows Black to counter-attack by 51 ... Be4. Anand, of course, played the killing 51 Rf4!, attacking the backward d4 pawn and <simultaneously> preventing Black from attacking the c2 pawn by stopping ... Be4.|
I think we all got a little too excited when we saw the skewer on the d-file. <Instead, the winning idea is to hit the Black d4-pawn along the rank, not along the file.>
Very nice, precise play by Anand.
|Aug-03-04|| ||nikolaas: <vsaikaley> 47.Nh5 Be4 48.Qf7+ Kh8 49.Qe8+ Kh7 50.Rf7+ Kg6 (50....Bg7 51.Rxg7 Kh6 52.Qh8+ Bh7 53.Qxh7#) 51.Rd7+ wins the queen. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||Knight13: <notyetagm> Try not to curse at chessgames.com, please. |
|Aug-03-04|| ||beenthere240: <acirce>
You're right. 47. c4 is a very cute deflection. Nice observation.
|Aug-03-04|| ||hecrmara: Hello everybody.
I think that the best response to 47. Nh5 is 47...Qg4. Comments?
|Aug-04-04|| ||Gypsy: < hecrmara: Hello everybody. I think that the best response to 47. Nh5 is 47...Qg4. Comments? > A good idea, alas there is 48.Qd8+ Kh7 49.Nf6+. |
It looks like Black has to counterattack by 47... Bf4+ 48.Kh3(!) Qe3+ 49.Kg4 Bh6 where the 1/2 point between 1-0 and 0.5-0.5 is still in dispute.
|Aug-04-04|| ||acirce: <It looks like Black has to counterattack by 47... Bf4+> Then 48.Rxf4! is also an easy win. In the end of your line, that also seems to work, there is a forced mate starting with 50.Qd8#. |
|Aug-04-04|| ||Gypsy: <Then 48.Rxf4! is also ...> An interesting case of blindness on my part. I did not even consider it (obviously); perhaps I was blinded by 48.Nxf4? |
<...there is a forced mate starting with 50.Qd8#> This does not suprise me. Basically I was just musing about that 47...Bf4+ seems to be the only way to muddy the watters. I do not even see any other sensible move after 47.Nh6. And even if Black could just sit tight, then there is this mating procedure: (after the Nh6 and pass) 1.Qd8+ Kh7 2.Qe7+ Kg8 3.Nf6+ Kh8 4.Qh7# or 2...Kh8 3.Rf8+ Bxf8 4.Qxf8+ Bg8(Kh7) 5.Qg7#.
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