< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Feb-17-05|| ||Cyphelium: <Hinchcliffe> I have to correct myself before you do. After 42. ♖f6+ ♕xf6 43. ♗xf6 ♖xg2+ 44. ♔f1 e3 45. ♕d8, the simplest is of course 45.- ♗b5+ 46. ♔e1 exf2+ 47. ♔d2 f1♕+ etc. |
Also, the line I gave doesn't work. After 45. ♕d8 ♖xf2+? 46. ♔e1 h2 47. ♕e7+....(etc until) 52.- ♔h1, white plays 53. ♗h4, which is troublesome for black, for example 53.- ♖g2 54. ♕xf4 ♗b5 55. ♕f3, when black soon will run out of moves. Perhaps he can hold the draw somehow, but it's not that relevant when the alternative is clearly winning.
|Feb-19-05|| ||Hinchliffe: <Cyphelium>
Just played through your work.Thank you but I think you missed a quicker mate. 42. Rf6+...QxR 43.BxQ...Rxg2+ 44.Kf1....e3 45.Qd8...Bb5 46.Ke1...Rg1++. Thank you Cyphelium for doing the hard work and for showing just why it was wrong to be tempted by a quick queen grab.
|Feb-19-05|| ||misguidedaggression: What about move 44? Bf6+ seems stronger as 44...Kh6 is forced. Now instead of 45.Qxg8? Qb1+ (helpmate: 45...exf2+ 46.Kh2 fxg3+ 47.Kxg3 f1=N#) 46.Kh2 Qh1# white plays 45.Be5+ Kh7 46.Bxf4 (46...Qxf4? 47.Qxg8+ Kxg8 48.gxf4 e2 49.Re6 Bf3 50.Kh2 with a won endgame.) |
|Feb-19-05|| ||Hinchliffe: <misguidedaggression> are you quite sure you haven't misguided your comments to the wrong game? |
|Feb-19-05|| ||misguidedaggression: I'm talking about move 44 in the actual game, I think you've established that white can't fork the king and queen on move 42. It looked like white had something stronger on move 44 but it wasn't as strong as it looked at first glance. It was interesting, though, and I decided to post it. |
|Feb-19-05|| ||aw1988: [Event "?"]
[White "New game"]
[FEN "6r1/1p4k1/p1bR4/2P2q1p/1P3p1B/P3p1Pp/Q4P2/6K1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Bf6+ Qxf6 $3 (1... Kh7 2. Qf7+ Kh6 3. Bg5+ Kxg5 4. Qxg8+ Qg6 5. Qxg6#) (1...
Kf8 2. Rd8+ Be8 3. Rxe8+ Kxe8 4. Qxg8+ Kd7 5. Qd8+ Kc6 6. fxe3 (6. Qd6+ $4 Kb5
$11)) (1... Kh6 2. Bg5+ Kg7 (2... Kh7 3. Rh6+ Kg7 4. Qb2+ Kf8 (4... Kf7 5. Rf6+
) 5. Rf6+) (2... Kh7 3. Rh6+ Kg7 4. Qb2+ Kf8 (4... Kf7 5. Rf6+ Ke8 6. Rxf5) (
4... Kf7 5. Rf6+ Ke8 6. Rxf5)) 3. Qb2+ Kh7 (3... Kf8 4. Rf6+ Ke8 5. Rxf5 Kd7 6.
Rf7+ Kc8 7. Qe5 exf2+ 8. Kxf2 fxg3+ 9. Qxg3 Bd7 10. Qd6 Rd8 11. Bxd8 h2 12.
Qc7# (12. Qxd7+ Kb8 13. Qxb7#)) 4. Rh6#) 2. Rxf6 Kxf6 3. Qxg8 exf2+ (3... e2)
4. Kxf2 h2 $11 *
|Feb-19-05|| ||aw1988: Note that's 1...Qxf6!! and 6. Qd6+??. |
|Feb-19-05|| ||aw1988: fxe3 in the game loses terribly after fxg3, so it looks like Bf6+ is the best move. |
|Feb-19-05|| ||aw1988: Also note 3...e2?? is bad, I simply forgot to mark it as such. I think that's it. |
|Feb-21-05|| ||Hinchliffe: <misguidedaggression> Now I see what you mean. As you say rather interesting as you say. Glad we cleared up the mystery (me being stupid I fear) as I enjoy following up the opportunities spotted by us outsiders. Nice one. |
|Feb-23-05|| ||misguidedaggression: My fault, It did look like I was responding to the 42.Rf6 line. I should have cleared that up. Also aw1988's Queen sac looks like it causes trouble, and white may have to settle for a perpetual check. However instead of taking the rook on move 47(3) white may be able to play 47.Kh2 and start picking off the advanced Kingside pawns. Note how after 47...h4!? the rook is en prise because of 48.Qxg8 exf2 49.Qf8+ followed by Qxf4 and Qxf2 or 48...e2 49.Qf8+ Ke6 50.Qd6+ Kf7 51.Qxf4+ followed by Qe3. |
|Feb-23-05|| ||whithergoes: <capanegra> Whatever the justice of Ware's case against Grundy, one thing is certain. Grundy had no shame or honor whatsoever to invoke poverty as a reason for deserving a prize over someone who was probably better at the game. It makes me pine for the days when chess matches were played without stakes. Unfortunately (joking face) we'd have to go back to the days of Ruy Lopez to see that...(I don't know when the stakes-less era of chess ended but would be happy to hear a response to this implied inquiry) |
|Feb-23-05|| ||misguidedaggression: Honestly, I think Ware was just looking for an excuse for his sloppy play. He was just mad about losing a won position and made the whole thing up to try to get back in the money. |
|Sep-01-06|| ||tamar: The odd circumstances surrounding this game, and the accusations of cheating, mentioned by <capanegra> in the first kibitz, are recounted by Jeremy Spinrad at http://www.chesscafe.com/spinrad/sp...|
|Apr-04-08|| ||thelivingprestonware: Maybe we are reading too much into our analysis.Perhaps they had a glass or two on the break during this long match.Everybody makes a bad move. Not enough to hang the guy out on a clothes line.|
|Apr-01-16|| ||Phony Benoni: No pun here, just a story: P Ware vs J Grundy, 1880 (kibitz #1)|
|Apr-01-16|| ||zanzibar: Let's add some of the tb's commentary about the game...|
<But the games between Messrs. Judd and Mohle, and Ware and Grundy, lasted far into the even ing ; and both were of the utmost importance to at least three of the contending parties engaged in them, in making "up their final score. Captain Mackenzie by his last victory over Mr. Delmar had attained a final score of thirteen and a-half games, while to the credit of Messrs. Grundy and Mohle twelve and a-half games had been secured by each, with the result of the pending battles undecided. The scores were, consequently, so close that the difference between a draw and a defeat would affect the relative position of Messrs. Grundy and Mohle for the second prize, whereas a victory to either secured a tie with the Captain, with still a chance for the first prize.
The excitement during the slow and guarded progress of the two games was intense. Scores of eager spectators were mounted on chairs struggling to catch a glimpse of the boards over the heads of the dense throng that surrounded the players in a succession of tiers, rising in amphitheatrical gradation from the regular habitues, who were comfortably seated around the tables, to the mobile multitude, planted squarely upon the base of their pedestals, perched upon tiptoe, and mounted upon every available article of furniture that could be found, from the treacherous cuspidor to the fragile cane-seated chair, through which several sudden and disastrous descents were made. Representatives from every daily paper in the city were energetically wrestling with their reports, and agents of the Associated Press were in waiting to dispatch the news of the result over the country.
Of the two lingering battles, that between Messrs. Judd and Mohle was the first to reach a termination. It was a finely contested Ruy Lopez, and ended in a draw at the 85th move, giving Mr. Miihle a total of thirteen games, and Mr. Judd eleven.
In order to escape the possible dilemma of retrograding into the third position it then became a paramount necessity to Mr. Grundy that he should defeat his opponent, and his utmost efforts were strained to effect that end. At the close of the afternoon session Mr. Ware had acquired a winning position, but upon resuming the game in the evening, by some apparently purposeless moves—which, however, may be inferred from the sequel to have involved a deep and dis graceful design—Mr. Grundy was permitted to retrieve his position from the threatened danger, and eventually— though not precisely a part of that design—to win the game, and secure a tie with Captain Mackenzie for the first prize.>
tb p147-8/170-1 (pp's added)
<rising in amphitheatrical gradation from the regular habitues> is a phrase of beauty and wonder. As is <treacherous cuspidor>.
|Apr-01-16|| ||al wazir: I too like 37. Rd8, the road not taken.|
|Apr-01-16|| ||Castleinthesky: Unfortunately, fixing matches at high levels has been a theme throughout parts of modern chess history. The most notable examples are from the Interzonal tournaments during the 1960s with the Soviet players purposely drawing or playing fast games to advance and defeat Fischer.|
|Apr-01-16|| ||dumbgai: That $300 second prize would be worth around $7000 in today's money.|
|Apr-01-16|| ||kevin86: White can block the pawn...and be mated in two.|
|Apr-01-16|| ||morfishine: I don't know what anybody's talking about|
|Apr-01-16|| ||ajile: <al wazir: I too like 37. Rd8, the road not taken.>|
Agreed 37.Rd8 looks dangerous with the threat of Qd6+ and dominating the central dark squares.
|Apr-01-16|| ||newhampshireboy: To play for a stake is acceptable but I draw the line at playing for hams!|
|Apr-01-16|| ||keypusher: <
Premium Chessgames MemberApr-01-16 Castleinthesky: Unfortunately, fixing matches at high levels has been a theme throughout parts of modern chess history. The most notable examples are from the Interzonal tournaments during the 1960s with the Soviet players purposely drawing or playing fast games to advance and defeat Fischer.>
Only if "most notable" means "completely imaginary." For starters, no Soviet ever beat Fischer in an interzonal in the 1960s. Second, Fischer only competed in two interzonals in the 1960s. He won one (undefeated) and quit the other. But the Soviets had nothing to do with that.
You may be thinking of the Curaçao Candidates tournament. But it didn't happen there either. Fischer took himself out of contention at the beginning. At no time was he a threat to win.
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