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|Aug-11-06|| ||patzer2: <RandomVisitor> After <15.Nc7 Qc6 16.Nxa8 d5 17.exd5 Nxd5 18.Bb5 Qxb5 19.Nc7 Qc6 20.Nxe6 fxe6 21.Qd3 Rc8>, White plays 22. Rhe1 (diagram below) |
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and appears to be up a solid exchange, which should be +2.00 (+2.16 @ 16 depth, Fritz 8). Why only a 1.01 evaluation by Rybka?
|Aug-11-06|| ||The17thPawn: <Random Visitor> & <Patzer 2> What eval do your systems give Boleslavsky,s 15.c4 if you force them to analyze the position?|
|Aug-11-06|| ||RandomVisitor: <patzer2>In my post above, Rybka is telling you its endpoint evaluation after a 24-ply search. In other words, there is some unknown position, 24-ply deep, which has this score.|
If you slide forward 15 half-moves (or ply) to the diagrammed position after 22.Rhe1, the machine will have a new endpoint evaluation, which you point out is higher.
The problem with using computers to analyze positions is that their score is always based on an evaluation performed at a stopping point. You can always look deeper in your search. In fact, I should have slid forward in the analysis like you did to see if the score changed, which it did.
In summary, the evaluations differ because we had different stopping points in our searches. I hope this is not confusing.
|Aug-11-06|| ||RandomVisitor: <The17thPawn>Rybka finds 3 improvements for Black in the 15.c4 line, each of which bring the score to roughly 0.00.|
19...Bxf6, 21...Rdc8 and 22...Rdc8 all need to be examined to determine whether the 15.c4 line is sound. Otherwise, 15.Nc7 would be preferred.
|Aug-11-06|| ||al wazir: <RV>: As you probably know (but others may not), "Rybka" means "Little Fish." Or, as we who prefer to use our squashware might say disparagingly, "Small Fry."|
|Aug-11-06|| ||weary willy: <I don't understand today's pun though. Am I supposed to think of Isaac Newton?> |
Oh good - thought it was just me!
"Isaac a pawn, but it's poisoned"
|Aug-11-06|| ||patzer2: <RandomVisitor> <there is some unknown position, 24-ply deep, which has this score.> I'd think in a practical OTB game, even a strong human player would never find that deep 1.01 position. IMO White OTB should be able to keep his exchange advantage for a 2.0 advantage and win the endgame.|
|Aug-11-06|| ||filipecea: Black seems to not have a plan at all, very poor activity on the queenside. |
I'm not a dragon player (that is, I don't play neither sides of the dragon), but doesn't 11...e5 looks ugly? It closes the dark squared bishop, weakens the d-pawn, and also helped 18.Bg5 with the idea of taking the knight on f6 and the control of the beatiful d5 square.
|Aug-11-06|| ||kevin86: What a powerful knight! Not only does it indirectly guard the rook but also cuts off FOUR possible escape squares for the queen-allowing only two squares on the g-file.|
The queen is fixed on the g-file and after 31 h1 and 32 g1-she will be broken! lol
|Aug-11-06|| ||Phony Benoni: <filipecea> You miss the point. Black's overriding concern in the Dragon is avoid the exchange of his KB. 11...e5 accomplished this--Black still had that bishop when he resigned.|
The ironic part of this game is that Boleslavsky invented a line in the Sicilian where Black plays an early ...d6 and ...e5, despite the weakness of the d5 square.
|Aug-11-06|| ||filipecea: <Phony Benoni> thanks for the reply.|
Ok, but the question remains: does it worth to keep this bad K's Bishop?. I know I can be missing something. As a d4-player, I tend to underestimate some ideas present in the sicilians and the ruy lopez(s).
|Aug-11-06|| ||filipecea: BTW, black's idea after 12...Be6 may be to put his rook on c8 and then sac the exchange at c3 removing the defender, but I fail to see good prospects.|
|Aug-11-06|| ||Phony Benoni: <filipecea> Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was joking a bit. But if you're a d4-player, you must have played against a few King's Indians where Black plays ...e5, blocking his fianchettoed bishop.|
It's one of those things you have to judge according to the position. In this game, it probably wasn't a good idea, for the reasons you mentioned.
|May-09-07|| ||jheiner: I think the bad move here was 13. ... Rf8-d8. Although Black has locked up his KB, he has plenty of protection on the d5 square to keep it from becoming an outpost for Black's knight.|
Instead, if Black takes advantage of the opened c-file and plays 13. ... Ra8-c8, this makes the poisoned pawn unable to be played and brings the critical heavy peice into position continuing Black's Queenside attack.
I am just learning to be a Sicilian player, but the early opening of the c-file is a critical advantage, and with Qa5, Black is now commited to a strong Queenside attack.
That said, this was a beautifully played game by Bolelslavsky. Look at the positional change from move 13. to move 20. He forces the exchange of minor pieces perfectly and what's left is a beautiful outpost knight.
|Aug-02-07|| ||engmaster: 15) Obvious was Nc5 however Qc6 gives black counterplay after d5.|
15) C4 sacrifices the exchange of 1 pawn for a positional advantage of a strong Kt on D5 v bad bishop
|May-25-08|| ||kingscrusher: Hi all
I have done a video annotation of this game:
My comments differ considerably from any of the kibitzes on this game so far.
Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the opportunity to conceptualise this game as an important part of positinal thinking with respect to the strength of the knight outpost on d5 has been completely lost by most of the kibitzers of this game.
I hope my video addresses that issue and you enjoy it.
|Jul-25-08|| ||arsen387: I think 15..Bxc4 was a strategic error. After the exchange of light squared bishops and the f6 N d5 square remains undefended and there's no way to kick the white N out of there. If not that Bxc4, whites probably will play that Nf5-c3-d5 manouevre anyway, which will be met by Bxd5 cxd5 and blacks will remain with weak d6 backward pawn and a bad B blocked by own pawns, but position was holdable.|
28.g5! is a great move. Of course not 28..Qxh5 29.Nf6+ winning the Q. But what is more important, after g5 whites are threatening 29.Nf6+ followed by 30.Rxh7+ winning the Q. 28..h6 defends against that threat, but exposes blacks to other. Great game by Boleslavsky
|Mar-17-09|| ||WhiteRook48: 30 Rh5!!|
|May-19-09|| ||Gypsy: <kingscrusher> Your video, (~7:20), gives the <... 30....Qf6 31.Qh1 Re8 32.Rg1...> as a possible completion of the game. |
Perhaps <32.Rh8#> would also do? :-)
|Nov-26-11|| ||SoundWave: 15. c4 is an interesting idea..luring Black to capture the pawn and thus exchanging off one of the only pieces which can defend d5 (the other piece, the Knight, is exchanged off with 19. Bxf6).|
|Apr-21-12|| ||Tigranny: 11...e5? according to kingscrusher in his video of this game is a classical mistake that removes the strongest defender of that weak d5 square from the knight.|
|Jul-30-12|| ||Everett: <Gypsy: <kingscrusher> Your video, (~7:20), gives the <... 30....Qf6 31.Qh1 Re8 32.Rg1...> as a possible completion of the game.|
Perhaps <32.Rh8#> would also do? :-)>
If that is play from the final position, can't Black play <32..Qxh8>?
|Aug-16-12|| ||DrGridlock: One of the first chess books that I read was Irving Chernev’s “The Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played.” This game is featured as game #3 in Chernev’s book – “Knight Outpost at Q5.” Chernev writes in his introduction that, “The chessmaster knows which positions are favorable, and tries to bring these positions about. He knows that his pieces must be placed where they exert the utmost influence and where they prevent the opponent’s pieces from moving about freely. … The chessmaster knows how to obtain a slight advantage, and then exploit it to the fullest. In short, he knows the strategy of winning.” For years, I thought this was the way that chess games are played and won. |
Then along comes John Watson with his book, “Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy,” with his “rule-independence” and a completely different way to think about chess. Watson describes “rule independence” as, “the gradual divestment on the part of chess-players of the multitudinous generalities, rules and abstract principles which guided classical chess, and which still dominate our teaching texts. Furthermore, a rejection of the very notion of the ‘rule’ has taken place, in favor of a pragmatic investigation of individual situations.”
A “pragmatic investigation” of this game shows how an infatuation with the idea that the “Knight Outpost at Q5” was the defining concept of this game misunderstands: (i) whether or not the pawn sacrifice 15 c4 was a decisive (or even good) move, and (ii) which moves on Black’s part were the losing moves.
Komodo finds that 15 c4 was not a good move. White has a won game (eval +1.81) after the continuation 15 Nc7
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Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit (depth = 24):
1. (1.81): 15.Nc7 Qc6 16.Nxa8 Rc8 17.c4 Bf8 18.Bxa7 Rxa8 19.Be3 Nd7 20.Qb4 Nc5 21.Qc3 Na4 22.Qc2 Nb6 23.Rc1 Rc8 24.b3 Ra8 25.a4 Nd7 26.Bd3 Nc5 27.Qc3 Bg7 28.Rcd1 f5
Since the continuation 15 c4 does not rank in Komodo’s evaluation of White’s top ten options at move 15, we force its continuation, and then evaluate black’s responses
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Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit (depth = 23):
1. = (0.22): 15...Bxc4 16.Nc3 Qc6 17.Bxc4 Qxc4 18.g4 Qb3 19.Qd3 Rd7 20.g5 Nh5 21.Qb5 Qe6 22.Nd5 f6 23.h4 a6 24.Qb4 Rf8 25.Rhf1 Ng3 26.Rf2 fxg5 27.hxg5 Rdf7 28.Rc1 Kh8
After 15 c4 Bxc4, Komodo evaluates the game with a small edge (.22) to White.
It’s time to take the “!” off of White’s 15’th move. Chernev gives 15 c4 an “!” and Kingcrusher in his annotated video of the game states, “And here we see a systematic undermining of the d5 square, using a brilliant pawn sacrifice here. So it’s a very strategically deep pawn sac, with the move c4, and this is what makes the game really, really impressive.”
|Aug-16-12|| ||DrGridlock: Instead of a “brilliant pawn sacrifice,” let’s call the move what it is: White’s blunder at move 15. White had a won game (1.81) with 15 Nc7 and instead creates an even battle (.22) with 15 c4. It is black’s inexact play which covers up White’s blunder, and has incorrectly shaded our interpretation of this game.|
On moves 20 and 21, black plays inexact, but not game losing moves. It’s Black’s 22nd move, … Rad8, which starts to create significant problems for him.
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Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit(Depth = 24):
1. ² (0.52): 22...Rdc8 23.g3 Qd8 24.h4 Bg7 25.h5 Qd7 26.Qd3 Rc5 27.hxg6 fxg6 28.Qb3 Qf7 29.Ne7+ Kf8 30.Qxf7+ Kxf7 31.Rxh7 Rh8 32.Rxh8 Bxh8 33.Nd5 Bg7 34.Rh1 Rc8 35.b3 b5 36.Kb2 Ke6 37.Rh2 Kf7 38.Rh7
By black’s move 23, his queen is trapped on the kingside, and he is facing significant defensive problems:
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Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit:
1. ± (1.01): 23...Qh6 24.h4 Kh8 25.g4 Qg7 26.g5 h5 27.gxh6 Qxh6 28.h5 g5 29.Qb5 Qe6 30.Qxb7 Qd7 31.Qa6 Bh6 32.Rc1 Kg7 33.Qd3 Qe6 34.Ne3 Kh7 35.Nf5 Rxc1+ 36.Rxc1 g4 37.Nxh6 Kxh6 38.Qe3+ Kh7 39.Rc7
Black’s error was in moving the wrong rook to c8 on move 22. If he moved the rook from d8 to c8, he would have opened up the square d8 as an “escape square” for his queen (since the squares e7 and f6 are blocked by White’s knight).
One view of this game is to follow Chernev and Kingcrusher that, “[The knight on d5] is what I would call a strategic trump card. Once you achieve this kind of strategic trump card, it really helps in tactical operations later.”
However, a “modern” analysis of this game discovers its deeper truth. White’s c4 pawn sacrifice was unsound, establishing the knight on d5 did not provide a won position, and Black’s defensive lapses were more the decisive story in this game.
Boleslavsky-Lisitsin should remain an instructive game, but its lesson is that “pragmatic investigation” trumps “positional rules.”
|Jan-18-13|| ||Cemoblanca: The final position reminds me of "No Country for Old Men" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477348/) or in this case "No Square for Old Lady": After 30...Qg6 31.Qh3 b6 32.Rh1, etc. and the same scenario with 30...Qg3, for example: 31.Qh1 Bg7 32.Rg1, etc. And last but not least a LOL variation (includes Qg3 and Qg6): 30...Qg3 31.Nf6+ Kg7 32.Ng4 Be7 33.Ne3! Qg6 34.Qh3 Bg5 35.Nf5+! Kf8 36.Rh8+ Qg8 37.Qh7 Ke8 38.Rxg8+ Kd7 39.Qxf7+ Kc6 40.Nxd6! Rxd6 41.Rxc8+ Kb6 42.Rxd6+ Ka5 43.Rc5+ b5 44.Qxa7#.|
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