< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Feb-19-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: It also looks like white's pawn play in this game leaves a lot to be desired. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Reisswolf: Yeah, you're right!
But I do believe 26...f3 also works.
|Feb-19-04|| ||D.A. KALIM: I'm wonderin' after 24...Bh5, can white still defend? obvious choice of mine is 25.Kh2.Is that good? |
|Feb-19-04|| ||kolobok: i was thinking of rook to f3 |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: Reisswolf, maybe it also works, but I don't have to time to check. Why must white accept your sacrifice with 27. exf3? Can't he simply decline and play gxh6 or something else like Rd1? What is your threat if white declines? gxh6 Rxg3 only leads to a perpetual check I think. In either case, I think Bf3 is more straight forward even if Rf3 wins. Black might have some interesting possibilities with a two heavy piece mate after Kh7, Rg8 but the plan is too slow and I think black can evade it. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: 6. b4 is a bit too early for my tastes although it's probably sound. I think white should have played c4 earlier. I wonder if white had anything better than 18. h4?! That knight on e4 was really annoying, it's probably the most annoying out of all the things a d4 player meets in the Dutch. Since you've already played d4, the only way to "kick" the knight is with f3 which can sometimes limit the scope of the bishop. Capturing the knight on e4 often just gives black the superior pawn structure and kingside prospects. I think white tried to pay too much attention in the center, but it didn't help, it looks like Hahn couldn't find a plan. Perhaps a queenside pawn break like at b5 could have helped, white got crushed on the kingside in this game. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||crafty: 26...f3 27. gxh6 e3 28. d3 exf2+ 29. xf2 xd3 (eval -3.30; depth 12 ply; 500M nodes)|
|Feb-19-04|| ||Sneaky: crafty, I don't get it. I see that ...e3!! is quite a shot in that position, but what if White just moves his queen, e.g. 26...f3 27.c2 ?|
Oh wait, let me guess, if 26...f3 27.c2 d3! and once again you're threatening ...f3. If that's what's going on here then ...f3 is just a total waste of time because it all revolves around ...f3 anyhow.
|Feb-19-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: Yeah, Rf3 seems to win, but as Sneaky points Bf3 is much more effective and straight forward... Judging from crafty's evaluation of -3.30, I would guess that white can save herself from immediate mate by sacrificing a minor piece, the remaining .30 is probably positional damage like an exposed king. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Lawrence: White can last one extra move by sacrificing her Queen (but why bother?). 27.exf3 exf3 28.Qxd5+ cxd5 29.gxh6 Qg2# (Junior 8) |
|Feb-19-04|| ||euripides: I am always surprised more people don't play for f3 and e4 on the white side of the Stonewall. I've played this a lot in bitz with good results, but very few master games seems to contain this plan. Any ideas why ? |
|Feb-19-04|| ||A MAN CALLED HORSE: It's really disappointing to see Sneaky join the legion of 'I SAW IT A MILE AWAY ' morons. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||kevin86: The simple move was the best!! If 27 exf3 exf3 and you can pull the sheet over white. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||BeautyInChess: I like how black got his white squared bishop to h5. I find playing the dutch there is not really a good square for it since the pawn structure tends to make it a backward bishop. But, the way black finds a great place for it on h5 is nice. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Jatayu: Yeh, but sneaky makes great contributions to the discussions, so I wouldn't want to diss him. And who cares if people say they solved a problem quickly...no harm, no foul. |
|Feb-19-04|| ||Sneaky: Thanks Jatayu.
<It's really disappointing to see Sneaky join the legion of 'I SAW IT A MILE AWAY ' morons.> If you check the date you'll see that I posted that over a year ago. I didn't join the morons, I am the original moron!
|Feb-19-04|| ||gabigool: This opening and the resulting postions are not very familiar to me, but from what i'm reading here, black's light square bishop isn't ordinarily to be feared in the Dutch? my impression reading this was a lot of wasted moves by white rearranging his knights. 13 Ne1 - i would have probably played Ng6. this is a bad idea? the position doesnt seem impossible to force open. (my first comment ever here, be nice) |
|Feb-19-04|| ||roni.chessman: I just have a comment on the openings of hahn, which are all weird since i checked all her games. The fact that she keeps losing most of her games is because her pawn openings are not positional enough not against blacks defense, and she wastes too much moves repositioning knights and the like. Just my opinion though |
|Feb-20-04|| ||drukenknight: I go back to shadouts question on move 23. Perhaps 23 h5 in order to continue the spatial/positional game that white is trying for. and then probably e3 in order for the B to back up and still hold the h pawn.|
BUt I like this game, they get about 20 moves into w/o much problems.
Gabi/roni: Regarding the movement of N and B in the Dutch/stonewall/closed q side games. It seems to me that black will do very well if he can neutralize white's N w/ his pawns, whether by f5 or however you manage to set it up. sometimes you play f3/e4 sometimes something else.
THen hopefully if you can do that, your Bs are in a good position vis a vis the pawn walls in order to work around them. It is no surprise that there is going to be a lot of B and N moves to and fro as both players work on this problem. I think white came out the better of it as far as that goes..
SOmetimes you see white gets N to e5, a lot of times actually. If she can get her N there, her Ns will have some freedom. At the same time, that happens you may find blacks B are also active or perhaps they are hemmed in.
I think black didnt quite get all she woudl have liked to in the opening. YOu can seee by move 16 that whites N are locked into place in the center, that helped her game a lot. Probably blacks early Ne4 messed this up a little.
No big deal just as always there are problems w/ every opening.
|Feb-20-04|| ||Dick Brain: <euripides>I think the Stonewall for White is not too bad an idea such as in 1. d4 d5 2. e3 Nf6 3. Bd3 c5 4. c3 Nc3 5. f4 Bg4 6. Nf6 e6 7. 0-0 Bd6 8. Qe1 which is = according to NCO - advantage to Black according to Junior 8, almost equal with small advantage to Black according to Fritz 8, and dead equal according to Crafty. Yet, I'd rather be White in this game.|
But I think the real reason people don't play it is that every time you are planning to play it you always run into the Mr. Hypermodern Guy who plays some fianchetto defense with ...d6 which stamps the life out of the game.
|Feb-20-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: DB, I'm very confused, how at all does that answer euripides' question of "I am always surprised more people don't play for f3 and e4 on the white side of the Stonewall. I've played this a lot in bitz with good results, but very few master games seems to contain this plan. Any ideas why?" Euripides seems to be asking why why no one plays the Botvinnik central expansion plan against the Dutch Stonewall. |
|Feb-20-04|| ||ughaibu: Dick Brain: In your line I like to make a gambit 6....d4 7.cd g5 8.g5 Ne4 followed by e5. |
|Feb-20-04|| ||drukenknight: Ben. in response to that question I have to say it all depends on what happens. I often get that f3/e4 expansion but it happens in different games at different pts. Like out of Nimzo Indian; or even a French! |
IT just all depends on the timing and what the other guy is doing. I would not write off the move, but then I would not be too dogmatic about it either.
|Feb-20-04|| ||Benjamin Lau: drunken knight, a good pragmatic response, but it doesn't answer the crux of euripides' question- why isn't f3 played in Stonewall Dutch master games? Surely they may be overly dogmatic sometimes, but what are their reasons? |
|Feb-21-04|| ||euripides: <BenLau> thanks, that was indeed my question. |
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