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City of Edinburgh vs London Chess Club
"The Fighting Irish" (game of the day Sep-08-2019)
Correspondence match (1824) (correspondence), London/Edinburgh, rd 5
Scotch Game: Lolli Variation (C44)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-08-19  ASchultz: The Irish pawn center was a joke by Tony Miles referring to tripled pawns. This is probably more unusual than tripled pawns. I've gotten this structure in the Scottish game, actually--Nf5 and Bg3 both being recaptured by a pawn.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: 37...Bd2 seems be a decisive mistake. The move looks natural, it covers Pc6 and forces white to play 38.g3 opening thus the second line for attack on the pinned Bh2 with mating threats but it releashes the second white Rook to join to the counter-attack against black King, which appears to be far more effective. Black should have played 37...a5, and if 38.Rxc6, then 38...Bd2.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Count Wedgemore: <ASchultz> Yes, the late, great Tony Miles coined tripled pawns the 'Irish Pawn Centre' after seeing this game, won by the Irishman Eamonn Keogh:

E Keogh vs F J Sanz Alonso, 1978

However, not at any point are there any tripled pawns, Irish or otherwise, in today's GOTD. So the pun probably has more to do with the usual American lack of basic geographical knowledge, a not so uncommon phenomenon..

Sep-08-19  spingo: The Jewish chess player Arnold Schottlaender took his name form an area of Vienna called Schottland which is around the Schottenkirche (the Scottish Church).

That took its name from the Irish missionaries that founded the church. In those days there was less of a difference between paddies and jocks.

Sep-08-19  Ironmanth: Instructive on many levels! Thanks, chessgames. A happy Sunday to all.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Hi Spingo,

Of course it does not really matter, just a piece of trivia. Though it does look at bit odd when visitors to the Edinburgh club see the position I posted Edinburgh vs London, 1824 (kibitz #14)

It is on the original club crest hanging on the wall and has in the past prompted quite a few 'that looks wrong' questions.

In the Immortal Game. Anderssen vs Kieseritzky, 1851 Anderssen had the Black pieces and the move. (Black went first) which has led to at least three occasions so far discovered by Edward Winter of the winner being Kieseritzky because he was White in that actual game.

One example: 'Chess' by R.F. Green (various editions)

http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...

***

Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<Aschultz> The Irish pawn center was a joke by Tony Miles referring to tripled pawns. This is probably more unusual than tripled pawns.>

??? Did you mean to say doubled doubled pawns? Or did Tony Miles actually say that?

As an aside, does anyone know of a game featuring quadrupled pawns? That would certainly be unusual.

Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

AylerKupp,

The story of the tripled pawns by Tony Miles is here.

<Technically, it is actually the “Irish Pawn Formation”>

Game Collection: 56_IPC = Irish Pawn Centre/middlegame-structure

***

Sep-08-19  thegoldenband: <<AylerKupp:> As an aside, does anyone know of a game featuring quadrupled pawns? That would certainly be unusual.>

I think there have been a number of them, of which G M Kovacs vs R Barth, 1994 is the best known since (as Tim Krabbé noted) the quadrupled pawns persist for 23 moves (!).

Quintupled has never happened as far as I know.

Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <AK>, see Alekhine vs Nenarokov, 1907 for an example involving a future world champion.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: I am a total idiot.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <PB>, with all respect, how so? Per posting guideline 3, I shall have to ask for proof of this before I am ready to accept your statement at face value; for I have seen plenty of proof to the contrary.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <perfidious Edinburg is in Scotland, not Ireland, which makes the pun idiotic.
Sep-08-19  spingo: <Phony Benoni: <perfidious Edinburgh is in Scotland, not Ireland, which makes the pun idiotic.>>

...But we don't know the composition of the teams. There are a lot of Irish in both Edinburgh and London.

Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sargon: <Phony Benoni: I am a total idiot.>

And I put blind faith in your geographical knowledge!

Since my ancestry is predominately Scottish, how did I miss <Edinburgh>?

And don’t get me started on the ambush and slaying of my kinsman <The Red Comyn> by <Robert the Bruce> and his henchmen—before the high altar of the Greyfriars Church in Dumfries—to clear the path for Robert's ascension as King of Scots.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_...

Sep-08-19  RandomVisitor: Along with Honza's 37...a5 improvement, 35.Kg3 and white is better, 33...Bd2 equalizes for black, 20...Na3 is slightly better for black, 13.Nd5 almost equalizes, 11.a3 or 0-0 might be better, 10...0-0 equalizes, 8.0-0 is likely better.

6.Bd2 or Nc3 surprisingly better:


click for larger view

Stockfish_19082608_x64_modern:

<39/60 19:19 +1.12 6.Bd2 Nc6 7.Qe3> Bb4 8.Nc3 d6 9.f4 Qh4+ 10.g3 Qe7 11.0-0-0 Bg4 12.Nd5 Bc5 13.Qd3 Qd7 14.Bc3 0-0 15.Be2 Bxe2 16.Qxe2 Ne7 17.Nxe7+ Qxe7 18.Rhe1 f6 19.Kb1 c6 20.a4 a5 21.h4 Rfe8 22.h5 h6 23.Qd3 Qe6 24.Bd4 Bxd4 25.Qxd4 Red8 26.Qc3 Kh8 27.b3 Qf7 28.g4 Qc7 29.Kb2 Rab8 30.e5 fxe5 31.fxe5 dxe5 32.Rxd8+ Rxd8 33.Qxe5

39/58 19:19 +1.11 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Qe3 Bb4 8.Bd2 d6 9.f4 Qh4+ 10.g3 Qe7 11.0-0-0 Bg4 12.Nd5 Bc5 13.Qd3 Qd7 14.Be2 Bxe2 15.Qxe2 0-0 16.Kb1 Rae8 17.Bc3 Ne7 18.Rhe1 Nxd5 19.Rxd5 f6 20.Rdd1 Qc6 21.Qc4+ Kh8 22.Qd3 Re7 23.Re2 Rfe8 24.Rde1 b5 25.a3 Qb6 26.Rd1 b4 27.axb4 Bxb4 28.Bxb4 Qxb4

Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

<...But we don't know the composition of the teams.>

We do, they are listed here: Game Collection: 1824 Edinburgh Chess Club vs London Chess Club

If the pun was an error can it not be removed.

***

Sep-08-19  Andrew Chapman: The Scots are from Ireland anyway I believe: http://www.localhistories.org/scotl...

'In the 6th century a people from Ireland called the Scots invaded what is now Scotland. They settled in what is now Argyll and founded the kingdom of Dalriada.'

Sep-08-19  Ilkka Salonen: The English don't even have a legal body that could declare them independent in the event of the Brexit negotiations rendering the UK governance de facto tyranny upon them. I wonder how come such internationally exceptional underrepresentation can go unnoticed.
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: The way the Brits move I'm surprised Cromwell isn't still in power...
Sep-08-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  gezafan: <Sargon: <Phony Benoni: I am a total idiot.>

And I put blind faith in your geographical knowledge!

Since my ancestry is predominately Scottish, how did I miss <Edinburgh>?

And don’t get me started on the ambush and slaying of my kinsman <The Red Comyn> by <Robert the Bruce> and his henchmen—before the high altar of the Greyfriars Church in Dumfries—to clear the path for Robert's ascension as King of Scots.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_...

If you're mainly Scottish why do you have a name like Sargon? Why not change it to Red Comyn or some other Scotsman??

Sep-08-19  spingo: < Sally Simpson: ***
<...But we don't know the composition of the teams.>

We do, they are listed here: Game Collection: 1824 Edinburgh Chess Club vs London Chess Club...>

There you have it! There was a Cochrane on one side and a Buchanan on the other.

THEY were the "Fighting Irish".

Sep-09-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

...or maybe whoever came up with the pun thought it was Edinburgh v Londonderry.

(Cochrane analysed in an 1822 book the move 3.d4. He persuaded London to play it first v Edinburgh, Edinburgh liked the idea so much they played it back v London. It was from Cochrane we get the name 'Scotch Game/Gambit. )

***

Sep-09-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Count Wedgemore: <Sally Simpson: (Cochrane analysed in an 1822 book the move 3.d4. He persuaded London to play it first v Edinburgh, Edinburgh liked the idea so much they played it back v London. It was from Cochrane we get the name 'Scotch Game/Gambit. )>

Hi, Geoff. Didn't know this. Is that the same Cochrane that gave us the Cochrane Gambit? You know the one that goes: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7. It's not a very uncommon name, so I'm not sure if it's the same person.

Sep-09-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Yes the same player, John Cochrane, a mini hero of mine and I (we) are still researching him. His early life is a bit of a mystery but we are slowly putting it together.

If you look at his games v Mohishunder on here you will see he could have had half dozen other openings or variations named after him. Though played before 1860 you would think some of these game were played yesterday.

Cochrane vs Mohishunder, 1853


click for larger view

The Four Pawns Attack v the Pirc - 'The Cochrane attack.'

***

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